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QCF Design Community • View topic - Class/Race concepts


Class/Race concepts

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Re: Class/Glyph concepts

Postby Darvin on Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:51 pm

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Re: Class/Glyph concepts

Postby Lujo on Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:21 pm

Not to mention that most enemy abilities and constitutions already only really work as regen fighting obstacles. It one of the things which is unapparent but makes playing regen fighters a mite difficult - they never seem like the best choice for any dungeon because there's always at least one or two things which only really affects them specifically so people are more likely to pick up on other stuff sooner and quicker than they are on them. (Things were like that even before regen fighting got nerfed to a somewhat sensible level).
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Re: Class/Glyph concepts

Postby Astral on Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:37 pm

The main implication of DR is reducing the power of spellcasting without inlcuding the RNG penalty to utility glyphs. It would also annoy wizards, since spell cost reduction doesn't help if you can't deal any damage with your Pisorff/Burndayraz.

It would also differentiate max mana size and spellcasting efficiency. At the moment there's no difference between increasing max mana or fireball damage by 20%. Burn stacking became more meaningful while resist shredding couldn't help you. The Codex gained another layer of strategy and so the Whurgarbl.

Now imagine a special dungeon where one Boss has 50% PR in addition to 25 DR. You'd want to fireball it, except DR is gonna annoy you. And the dungeon also had monsters like this (30% PR and 2DR/level). But there were 2 no xp minibosses who were hard to kill, and one of them droppped a battlemage ring*. You could decide between saving resources or using them to gain spellcasting strenght. Flames and corrosion would be more appealing here too, or as an alternative solution a prepped RBS.

*Or they both dropped a 'FB amulet' = +1 FB damage/level and +1 FB cost.

I like how DR penalizes Monks and any regenfighting where the core is resist stacking, but only slightly affects the high damage based variant. I can see that DR is a less efficient version of resistances against high damage, but the 2 can be combined :)

Btw here are some monster ideas with DR and similar abilities:

- Gargoyle (140% Attack, 60% HP)
3 DR/level, 15% Phys R, slow strike
The low health makes it ideal for spiking, but spellcasting can barely weaken it, and if you go the melee route you need to be able to tank the hits somehow. Regen fighting is unadvised, but brawling with high health can work out.

- Sewer Slime (70% A, 80% HP)
30% PR, Slimy( has a temporary 6 DR/level called 'Slime', loses 2*your level of it on hits, grows back 1*monster level after each tile of exploration)
The monster has weak stats, but nasty defenses. Powering through with few strong attacks is next to impossible, regular regenfighting is futile. You can get around it with poison, and burning will weaken the Slime regeneration as well. This monster rewards high mana, strategic glyph use, potion races (since each of your new attack becomes significantly stronger), and goblins (with the level up your Slime reducing power grows too).
Because this monster is fairly complex I'd only include it in vicious dungeons.

- Glass Golem (90% A, 80%HP)
1 DR and 1 Damage Reflection/level (suffers this much lower damage while hurting you the same amount)
A simple monster only to introduce flat damage reflection. Hurts you even on dodges, and could kill you when popping your DP. DR or lifesteal can counter it.
Acts as a light version of retaliate FB, it only limits your potential to mix melee with FBs, but pure casters can still will. Annoys B2P users, ignores slowing.
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Re: Class/Glyph concepts

Postby Kami on Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:01 pm

I don't think that DR really adds another dephts to the game, it seems like the normal resistances are doing their job just fine. I think it is better to play around with these more than with the DR.
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Re: Class/Glyph concepts

Postby Darvin on Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:29 pm

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Re: Class/Glyph concepts

Postby Astral on Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:20 am

That special dungeon I mentioned would have been balanced to be beatable. Since the boss has really good, partially unremovable resistances, it would have had small health.

Usually people start fighting bosses at low level, pull some dings and beat the boss with those various refills. A boss like this would want you to engage it as high level as possible, and instead of relying on dings for refills (for casters), this would take potions and boons so your burning chain is unbroken and keeps on growing. If the boss had high MR the solution would have been resist stripping or melee or mixing the two.
Against this boss prefight burn stacking, corrosion, the Flames boon, prepped and/or looted BM ring, The Codex are all viable choices for casters.
Obviously melee builds are less effected by DR, that's why the 50% PR was added. They already benefit more from dings so they require less help, but resist stripping boons/might, Dracul, and anything that let's you take more hits help. While regnfighting it won't be efficient, it's still worth it with poison, since it's not gonna last long. Just make sure you do it at high level. It wouldn't be undoable with a Monk either, just take Stone Form, MW, poisonstrikes and/or Whurgarbl.

All in all this would be a dungeon that takes more specialization or unorthodox play to beat.

About my "The main implication of DR is reducing the power of spellcasting without inlcuding the RNG penalty to utility glyphs" statement: it wasn't meant as a comparison. Think of it as an alternative to MR. Golems have 50% MR but it's meaningless against casters. They can switch to Pissorf/Halpme, use Apheelsik if they have plenty of blackspace, or if they have ridiculous mana and/or means to shred resistances they power through anyways.

So DR is an effective way to make a single monster type within a dungeon hard to kill for casters. You can look for other monsters to spike for bonus xp, and once you get close to their level or even overlevel them their DR wont mean much against you, they become popcorn. Besides most of these monsters have reduced health.

Such monsters who are hard to kill by special builds already exist. I bet when you see AAs, you don't try melee against them, but pure casting can work out since they have really low health and DPs can be popped with very small damage too. Or you simply ignore them.

DR can let you create monster types with really low health and no DPs. MR would not mean anything in this case. These monsters are still killable, but you have to use new creative ways. To scare off most melee guys these have high damage. Gargoyle would be an example of this, though on second glance I'd put 2DR/level on them only. Stats are not final yet.

The Sewer Slime is the exact opposite in mechanics. Because of the removable DRs (Slimes), they favor high mana, or even more well planned attack sequencing. These monsters have both reduced damage and health, so once you got through their defenses you can abuse their puny brawling power. They also encourage potion usage, something that is rare among players.

I disagree with pisorff specialists not existing. At low levels any orc with high enough CP use it better than burndayraz. An Orc wizard of Binlor can do wonders, especially if you also have Rock Heart. They don't even have weak melee strength, so mixing in KB boosted stone skin hits does matter a lot. I never had a VT or Vicious run where 3-4 level higher kills were problematic with them.

Btw Darvin, what do you think about the power of regenfighting?
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Re: Class/Glyph concepts

Postby dislekcia on Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:49 am

So from a player interaction perspective, it's usually better to make them feel like they're doing something impactful instead of making what they're doing feel like it's hardly having an impact. Both the main points for having DR on enemies end up translating to simply giving those enemies more health (given the amount of damage that needs to be done) and more effective regen (because the percentage of total health restored per uncovered tile is higher). It's the health regen effectiveness booster than makes DR interesting on a player, we already have enhanced regen for enemies.

I think the other thing about DR is it doesn't push for a specific solution. Types of resistances on enemies focus players on the kind of attack that ignores that resistance. DR doesn't do that at all, so because it's a passive effect on an enemy that could be duplicated by giving the enemy more health (and thus making players feel better because they're "hitting harder" to achieve exactly the same progress) the DD design ethos meant we removed it when we tried it: It wasn't necessary.
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Re: Class/Glyph concepts

Postby MTaur on Sun Jan 04, 2015 3:54 pm

Updated OP with feedback. Jester is still a bit silly, and the shifting on-hit effect would invite a ton of guests to the "balance me" table. But I figured I might as well put the better version in the OP. Most of these effects are granted by large items, so it's probably not too bad for the most part.
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Re: Class/Glyph concepts

Postby Astral on Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:29 am

I like it a lot. It's unique and fun, and also has a strategic layer to it thanks to hit-effect setting. Also when you want to have a really random run, just prep a JJ with him. The spammable 2 MP Gettindare also lets you piety farm crazy.
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Re: Class/Glyph concepts

Postby MTaur on Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:05 pm

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