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QCF Design Community • View topic - Fighter races / strategies


Fighter races / strategies

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Re: Fighter races / strategies

Postby Lujo on Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:43 pm

XD

Oh, I've played the gnome a lot - there was a time when Darvin was going around doing crazy things with JJ and this kinda led me to go around gnoming things. Reason I'm not much into them anymore is that for a long time the trisword had a stacking +2 dmg bonus whenever you drank a potion which, as can imagine, made both the potion races into dmg powerhouses with very little effort. So playing the gnome basically ment that you had both the crazy damage and the refill power, and was well and thorughly explored (by Darvin if by noone else). The general consensus on halflings was that they only had the trisword and compared badly to the gnomes (there seems to be fewer things you can do with health potions, you know that, except that's not exactly true).

But the trisword was so overused and omnipresent that I actually started avoiding both the "the triling", as it was called, and the gnome, just to see what else is there and what else have we not been playtesting (this actually turned up a LOT of stuff, you wouldn't believe). But then when the trisword finally got what's coming (very late in the beta), people were really concerned that this would take away any reason to play the halfling at all! It was a legit concern. People (me included, ofc) get drawn to the obvious stuff and this shapes their outlook and it takes actual willpower to go try crack something that seems sub-optimal at first glance.

Now, I've had plenty of experience with non-obvious stuff turning out to in fact be more broken than the obvious stuff once you dig into it - the first vicious Gaan'Telet wins did not come from a default popular meta (which was always rogues; warlords and gnomes pretty much); lvl 1 bosskils came from TT and Taurog (most complained about god ever, for being underpowered); then at one point the devs have been progressively buffing CP values on junk items to see what happens and it took a while for anyone to notice at all; basically stuff you couldn't break with gnomes (and it's a whole load of stuff) was sitting around being all ludicrous and broken and... people didn't notice. (all right, people played other things, and the devs could whip out a most-played list but I'd bet you the potion races are the way most heavily played and most of the halfling play is from trisword times).

I also remember that asking for buffs rather than nerfs usually always turned out to be the wrong thing - just about always it turned out that the thing which looked underpowered hadn't been underpowered at all, we just haven't cracked or approached it properly. People thought Monks were in need of buffs when they had 50% resists both and a lower dmg penalty.

I kinda went around looking at things which haven't been looked at, stuff which was being complained about as underpowered and in need of buffs, and more often than not it just turned out that it was pretty legit. Or even more than pretty legit - sometimes even broken on purpose to see if anyone even tries it. The devs approach of quietly buffing stuff and not telling anyone to see if it entices people was great and smart in theory but in practice anything more complicated than trisword or gnomes, or other simple and obvious stuff like that which attracted people strongly. meant that stuff you can't even bombastically overexagerate, and which was on a whole different power curve - had a hard time getting noticed.

So it's not that I haven't played gnomes, I've played them quite a bit. What I've underplayed severely is Dwarves and Elves because spending locker slots on kegs, or anything other than the vicious rewards, was out of the question most of the time (and I don't really pay much attention to Elite items most of the time). The thing is that managing something with a gnome, especially a gnome with a trisword, had never been a matter of using my head, just efficiency, efficiency, efficiency and it was done to death by other people already. It also lead to Triswords and Warlords and generally stuff which had already given all the answers to questions it could've - and it didn't beat stuff which had yet been unbeaten and it didn't shed light on stuff which was still unclear.

I still used the gnome as my default no-brainer spellcaster race (instead of elves which I generally used only for fighters when not goblin), but I did take every opportunity to go Orc Pissorff, Goblin Sorcerer and late in the beta Halfling monk/priest/bloodmage. I've gone through the PQI a few times. All of it. For Science! And I can rather safely say that the advantages of Goblins, especially on vicious token runs for Mystera Sorcerers, are quite tangible. (Not that I'd be the only one saying it, ofc XD I'm just the guy who stopped playing those because he got bored with them :) )

See, when I try to not be bombastic and I try to explain stuff in depth - textwalls. :( And I still mean no harm, and I'm actually writing this because I find the whole process of how discoveries about game features were made from the player perspective kinda fascinating. I guess when you spend so much time pondering the DD learning curve you sometimes can't help yourself but write an essay/testimonial on it (or at least I can't). Even if another person only took a lovely joke-poke at you :)

However, once I get back to the game (things still a bit hectic but getting better), I'll probably give the gnome more playtime - I've done goblins to death on two playthroughs (I discovered the old martyr wraps gnome bloodmage on the first one, and the mystera gobbo sorcerer on the second one so I've overdone them quite a bit). Trisword's gone, halflings turned out to be hella legit even without it, I still don't feel like lockering and prepping kegs and yendor, so I guess I I'll be playing me some gnomes ^^ And crystal ball elves!
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Re: Fighter races / strategies

Postby Tinker on Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:26 pm

Ok, I cannot comment on the history lesson part, it's quite interesting to read and I'm sure it was quite interesting to be there! I joined when the game was already basically finished, so for me it all looks pretty thought-through and balanced (some stuff appears a little bit off sometimes, but the majority looks fine). E.g. Trisword is OK, not über also not pointless, I'd pick it up if I want +damage especially for the boss fight.

That said, I think we need to give the game - at least in its final form - more credit about the learning curve. The puzzles and the class challenges pretty adequately teach the aspiring player the basics, and illustrate beautifully how powerful Halflings and Gnomes are, for example. The only part I didn't like was Transmuter Silver (and no, it's not the reason why I'm not a Goblin fan, but to me it's one argument for how heavily the level got tweaked to make Goblins the viable race... all other challenges are legit with multiple different approaches, e.g. Rogue Gold is awesome in this respect).
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Re: Fighter races / strategies

Postby Darvin on Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:52 pm

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Re: Fighter races / strategies

Postby Lujo on Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:01 pm

^ Never mind that during the +2 stacking (this was permanent stacking, like the Orc racial bouns) per potion used era, the default way of starting a run was to walk in there with a trisword, gulp dodge, gulp double strike, gulp whatever else for good measure and go get your lvls 2-5 in one or two kills. And the damage stays. The current trisword is a fine, fine item, most old triswords were very metagame warping. And that went on for a looooong time. I actually salute Darvin for finally making the thread about giving that thing a ding behind the ear.

It was so silly that you could actually pick a halfling tinker, prep quest items and and alchemist scroll, find the trisword in one of your many shops and then you're playing a halfling-dwarf-orc hybrid all at once. From the get go, ofc, and you also get to kill a lvl 5ish something right off the bat, ofc. It was called the dorcling.


Getting this game balanced and flowing as smooth as it does was haaaaard work, on part of the devs, ofc, but it did have a several years long murderous beta testing epic. ^^
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Re: Fighter races / strategies

Postby TheSchachter on Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:22 pm

For those of us who never got to experience the old Trisword and the glorious Dorkling, the wiki has an archived annotated playthrough that shows it off:

http://www.qcfdesign.com/wiki/DesktopDu ... e_Dorkling

Ah, memories... An old-trisword-wielding Halfling Rogue was my first Naga City win.
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Re: Fighter races / strategies

Postby Darvin on Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:44 pm

Actually, if anyone with a talent for these things want to properly crop the original Trisword sprite from that playthrough, I'd like to use it for the "deprecated" template that warns about outdated information.

I intend to keep these old playthroughs indefinitely on the Wiki and just make them with the deprecated template.
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Re: Fighter races / strategies

Postby dislekcia on Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:30 am

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Re: Fighter races / strategies

Postby Lujo on Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:20 pm

Well, it's your game, you get the rl praise, recognition, and you know, money for it. I doubt anyone thinks they were more important than you. But we did do our best playtesting it, you know? Can we be a bit proud of ourselves? 'Cause when people say all the great things about the game (especially about everything being there for a reason and the game being so well balanced and stuff) in all those reviews I don't even expect them to know how many hours the testers put in...

You know, a newbie comes up and any one of us is just a random dude on the internet with a bit of a post count on a forum, no way for them to even tell we even know what we're talking about regarding the game. You're always the guys who made it. Not that we didn't hugely appreciate years and years of steady updates every week from a small team, or thought it wasn't worth sinking tons of time into it and all that...

EDIT: It's just that every time someone praises the game or likes the game he'll think you guys are geniouses - and you are! But you will occasionally get praise for something we might've been pretty important in achieving. It's inevitable. And we know how much stuff we went through to help you guys make it the best it can be. And you guys chose to not give us much info about what you were trying to do with any particular feature - it's kinda understandable that we'd end up feeling like we "invented" stuff, because most of the time we had no clue how to test whether things are "working", because we always had to figure out how they were supposed to work at all. So testing this thing in a meaningful way was actually really, really difficult! It was as much as trying to read your guy's minds as well as applying whatever to the game and then trying to figure out whether this was a desired result or not. You made a great game, and have been amazing at just about anything you've done to it, but testing it under all the circumstances is an achievement in it's own right. We really had to go deeper than most testers on most games have to go, and the game turned out pretty damned deep. Noone's trying to take anything away from you, but whatever you write or say about the game people will take seriously (stands to reason), but it just happens that the more hardcore testers actually know more about the thing than you'd expect an internet forum dweller to know about anything. Occasionally even more than you guys when it comes to a particular feature and it's in-game applicability, if someone went full crazy and focused on it for days on end, it happened several times during the beta (it's quite unlikely that we never made you guys go "holy crap, we didn't think of that one!" simply due to the sheer amount of combinations). We just have to occasionally point it out because it's not written anywhere, and doesn't ever have to be, but it's handy to know that you're getting replies from someone who, despite not being the creator of the game, does indeed know his s**t.

And in a tiny bit of of random balance tweak appreciation, I nominate the Crystal Ball fix as the best tweak ever. I could call dozens of your moves as delightful, but that one in particular, as a tiny fraction of what you did, kinda stuck with me. Dunno who's one was that.
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Re: Fighter races / strategies

Postby Tinker on Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:04 pm

Postus Resurrectus! :)

Please disregard the last page or two. Bit OT. But I wanted to reach back to the fighters a bit because it's one of my favourite classes by now. And I've been playing several runs with the "poorer" race choices (Gnome, Halfling and Dwarf), and I must say that there are synergies that can be found and exploited to make these combinations very strong.

My favourite is the Gnome. Here you need to focus on +Mana sources. However, Gnome's extra potions become more and more powerful as your mana store increases; PLUS, the Fighter's extra level-up full-restore also benefits from this. Less straightforward than the Elf Fighter (as she doesn't need anything, Elf complements Fighter and you have a combo build even if you go Purist), but can actually be stronger if you find ways to boost mana. To be honest, something as simple as Mystera / extra Mana Boosters / Pendant of Mana will do wonders. Mage Plate is obscene with this build.

I played around a bit with the Dwarf. What I noticed is that as the Dwarf Fighter you benefit a lot from resists - even low levels of Resists. Normally a 10%-30% resist is not very meaningful, but with the extra health pool, it can just mean an extra hit or two, and it starts to become important. Even more so if you have on average an extra level-up full-restore. Now the main question for the Dwarf is what to do with the mana, and what I found again to be useful is GETINDARE and to a lesser degree, BYSSEPS. By casting GETINDARE on regular attacks you can get an occasional dodge, plus you get the guaranteed first strike, so 1-2 extra hits per enemy, and it starts to add up. Of course, finding GETINDARE is not guaranteed, so an option is to prepare TT just to pick up the glyph and maybe some Poison - but a quick convert-out is needed because otherwise TT is not optimal for the Dwarf.

Halflings benefit a lot from extra health or resists, but as odd as it may seam, what I've found to work decently with them is a full-hybrid approach and boosting mana and spellcasting. You can melee anything you want to melee because you have potions, and you go with JJ or Mystera and +Mana items to get a spellcasting edge, and that means you fully benefit from level-ups, and can tailor your approach to each monster depending on what they are more susceptible to. (I'm not such a huge fan of a strictly-melee Halfling Fighter because if you're into a strong melee focus, Priest offers a much better edge, at the cost of losing out on level-ups, you get massive restores from each potion, hard to match that with a Fighter.)
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Re: Fighter races / strategies

Postby Lynzkar on Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:10 pm

Dwarf is my favorite for the fighter. I'd say the figther profits from all the races equaly good, it's alot about the dungeon you pick and the style you feel like playing.
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