Here's what I think of Goblins:

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Here's what I think of Goblins:

Postby Tinker on Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:36 pm

I've been neglecting Goblins, probably playing them less than 5% of the time. I've recently read recommendations for Goblins both for Fighter and Sorcerer. So I played my last couple of games as a Goblin, trying a couple of classes (including the two recommended).

I think that Goblins play differently than the other races because their conversion bonus neither gives a perma-bonus (Orc/Human/Elf/Dwarf) nor a spike (Halfling/Gnome); but rather it's kind of like a permanent bonus (you keep the XP you gain), but not really because at level 10 they are still weaker than the other races; and it's kind of like a spike beacuse of the full-restores, but again, not really, because you only gain 1 extra full-restore, the rest is just timed better. So it's primarily a speed/timing thing - the Goblin can better control the pace of advancement through converting.

It did *feel* good to play the Goblin. However I caught myself getting sloppy on popcorn management - why bother planning carefully, when I can just break a glyph and level, using the full-restore to spike a higher-level foe or boss in the process. I think part of the reason why playing Goblins feels so good is that there is a guaranteed bonus - since conversion timing is critical, throughout the game I'm looking for opportunities to convert, and get the maximum benefit from it (i.e. spike a 4-level higher monster). Whereas with a Gnome I can finish the level without quaffing any of the bonus potions, essentially getting no benefit from converting.

I tested a couple of Hard levels, but just to see how things pan out on a Vicious level I went through Naga City with the Goblin Sorcerer of Mystera. It felt like a breeze; I lucked into the Crystal Ball, so I had massive mana spike and I won the level easily. Then I tried, as a reference, the same level with the Gnome Sorcerer of Mystera, and I won similarly easily. Actually it did not *feel* as easy, nevertheless, objectively, it was easier despite not feeling so, because I had more resources left in the end. I did not miss the Goblin's bonus. When I got tight, I could always level off low-level monsters. However, having an inordinate amount of extra Mana potions made me play much more confidently against the last bosses (despite missing the Crystal Ball!).

So either I'm still completely clueless about what makes Goblins so awesome, or they're just not my thing... In any case, I consider them more of a niche race, awesome with Assassins, outshining any other race on short levels, and generally pleasant all around, but resembling the Dwarf in my book from the perspective that the bonus they offer (bonus XP at the right time) is relatively easily attainable with other races on most levels, by playing the right way.
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Re: Here's what I think of Goblins:

Postby TheSchachter on Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:18 am

I'm far from an expert on Goblins, but I don't know if Naga City is really the best place to show them off. Naga City is one of those dungeons (not unlike Vicious Gaan-Telet) where the core challenge is an endurance gauntlet against multiple lvl 10 foes and regenerating resources (blackspace + popcorn). The Goblin's potential isn't exactly wasted there, but humans, orcs, and to a lesser degree halflings/gnomes (with boosted HP/MP) ultimately get more staying power in a scenario like that, from my experience.

Goblins absolutely shine in scenarios where fighting high-level enemies is difficult - all Vicious Token scenarios, for instance, and I like having them for Namtar's Lair and Vicious Halls of Steel for their painful monster set. They get to set up level-up canons in situations where other classes can't (or don't want to), which is a big deal in the aformentioned scenarios where popcorn isn't easy to come by. The extra level-ups also make it easier to use higher-level monsters as popcorn, for that matter, and let's not forget that they also make your attacks and fireballs stronger (it took the Vicious token to make me remember that level ups aren't *only* for full-restores :P).

It's easy to think of them as some kind of gnome/halfling hybrid, but that would be missing many overlooked aspects of goblin play. I'd say it's the most complex race by far when it comes to using it to the fullest. (Well, Dwarves are also complicated to use well, but that's a different story altogether).

I'm sure there'll be other players stopping by here to better explain the merit of the Goblins, but that's a start.
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Re: Here's what I think of Goblins:

Postby Darvin on Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:02 am

TheSchachter wrote:I'm far from an expert on Goblins, but I don't know if Naga City is really the best place to show them off.

Goblins absolutely shine in scenarios where fighting high-level enemies is difficult - all Vicious Token scenarios, for instance

This is very true. The shorter and more brutal the dungeon, the better Goblins perform. When you actually are getting a level ahead of the other races, Goblins are more than just an extra ding or a better-timed ding. They actually have a power advantage. Their talents are wasted in Naga City, where blowing past level 10 isn't just easy, it's unavoidable!

I'm sure there'll be other players stopping by here to better explain the merit of the Goblins, but that's a start.

Eh, there's no great secret. Goblins aren't some magic ingredient that lets you win. They're more about reliability than power, consistently being able to maintain momentum throughout the dungeon run regardless of what specific roadblocks are in front of you. Use them like any tool in your toolbox; there are some situations where there are better choices, and some situations where it's the right tool for the job.

And yes, the Goblin Assassin really makes the race shine. That combo on its own ensures goblins will never be a niche like the dwarf.
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Re: Here's what I think of Goblins:

Postby Lujo on Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:39 am

The thing with Naga City is that it cuts you off from most of your shops and glyphs for the end fight which is very bad for a timing race like a goblin (or classes like transmuter and bloodmage), and favorable to other races because they can take the benefits of their conversion with them. Another thing with it is that you get to fight regular monsters and are supposed to get to a certain level before you start fighting bosses and that it's bosses are regular ones with easy (or normal?) stats, which isn't really representative of either Vicious Dungeon or Vicious Token play and is distinctly unfavorable to goblins. Another thing is that big-mana pool spellcasters are actually exploration intensive and Naga City refreshes blackspace which often isn't the case in vicious runs.

You breezing it with a goblin actually says quite a bit about you as a player and also the power of the goblin. :)

Do you have the vicious token unlocked and are you doing vicious token runs? I'm sure many can be done with various clasess and races, but doing them with goblins is significantly easier than with others most of the time. They turn the regular dungeons into these tiny cramped nightmares where stuff is way to difficult to fight and most other races and many classes have to jump though hoops to level (especially past a certain point). Goblins just faceroll those. So the thing with goblins is not so much about them being underpowered, as much as the regular "leveling" part of the game being TOO EASY!!!!11!11!! XD (A similar case in the realm of classes is the monk - other things look about on par until the game actually gives you a chance to see just how much of a spread there really is)

Also, I've been analyzing the sorcerer throughout the beta, and he hasn't been changed much (or rather at all apart from Bloodtopowa affecting him differently than it does other races). He's quite an anomaly in one important regard and that is that his huge mana pool is actually worth a lot more than it seems. If you prep Mystera and a subdungeon early, you're at 17 or even 18 mana very, very, VERY quickly. Way before anyone else, and with so little exploration that you might as well be starting with it. This has actually "obsoleted" elves for me because if I need a large mana pool spellcaster I can get an 18 mana one pretty effortlessly simply by being a sorcerer. 18 mana with no exploration and very little in the way of preps you wouldn't use anyway is a huge deal. Goblins can not only regen this entire mana pool wihout fighting anything (so even more exploration saved potentially), but the only mana limit they care about is the "fireball per full pool" limit, and not the potion restore thresholds.

I'm not sure what you mean by having difficulty caring about optimal popcorn play because you can level up - popcorn is for more than leveling, and easy leveling helps advanced popcorn play. Goblins worship TT more easily than anyone else does because their CP thing instantly turns stuff into popcorn, making them the no.1 early TT worshipers. A very fun thing to do is to go TT gobbo and squeeze every bit of Tikki's Edge (about 3-4 hits). Any popcorn munching class - Bloodmage, Fighter, Crusader maybe others depending on deity, if goblin, can set themselves up with situations other classes simply can't. Bloodmage is pretty much notorious for REALLY scaling well with levels and having a lot of juice to squeeze out of any ding but also a lot of need to save exploration for B2P use, and as opposed to Halflings who make silly good early Bloodmages (with health boosts), Goblins can make for crazy efficient and "curvy" bloodmages (I've done VGT with a goblin BM I think, oddly enough. I did have the old Martyr Wraps back then, but it's still pretty viable on non-endurance runs).

Also, and this isn't mentioned often - damage resistance guys scale well with levels, and the trick with them in really hard dungeons (as much as there is one with the mechanic being as powerful is you can get it going) is often getting those levels. It's not often attempted because of the obvious benefits of the damage races, but Goblin paladins and berserkers are at the very least playable (and goblin Crusaders are definitely playable, Patches FTW + notorious popcorn munchers, the more you have at end game the better).
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Re: Here's what I think of Goblins:

Postby Lujo on Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:49 pm

One more thing I forgot to mention, it's a tidbit really but there's places where it pays off enormously - the less stuff you need to kill (popcorn especially) the more popcorn you've got left, right? And a goblin can use some really low-resource intensity level catapults to spike down something really, really big (especially if Sorcerer or Bloodmage). Among many things which allow you to benefit from this is a small triket called "the blue bead". It's essentially a 12 (or something) mana restored for munching up that popcorn and dishing out a whooping 5 gold (if memory serves me right). Mystic Balance Goblin Bloodmages love that thing.
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Re: Here's what I think of Goblins:

Postby Tinker on Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:28 am

TheSchachter wrote:Goblins absolutely shine in scenarios where fighting high-level enemies is difficult - all Vicious Token scenarios, for instance, and I like having them for Namtar's Lair and Vicious Halls of Steel for their painful monster set.

I will need to try them for different dungeons then. Maybe I just played the wrong dungeons with them until now... What dungeon/class combinations (excluding Assassin of course :) ) favor the Goblin the most? I want to test them to see how goblin play compares to however my gut-feeling race would play. Pointers on play strategy is also welcome, just to make sure I play them right.

Lujo wrote:You breezing it with a goblin actually says quite a bit about you as a player and also the power of the goblin. :)

Well, it might say more about the power of the Sorcerer, plus I did say that I lucked into the Crystal Ball, which is arguably a mini-Gnome module in itself :) Restoring my 25 Mana a total of six times (3x by CB, 3x by level-ups) during the bossfights is pretty awesome and makes it so that losing would require a lot of negligience...

Do you have the vicious token unlocked and are you doing vicious token runs?

I don't play Vicious Token a lot, I basically just completed each level once with that, some of the inherently Vicious levels are yet to be ticked off, though :) My limited experience with the VT is that if I found out a good strategy for the level, VT doesn't matter that much, it just means I need to pay attention throughout the run, not just the end... :)
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Re: Here's what I think of Goblins:

Postby Lujo on Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:32 pm

Tinker wrote:What dungeon/class combinations (excluding Assassin of course :) ) favor the Goblin the most?


Places where you absolutely have to spike stuff without interacting with the map too much beforehand or where you need to make a good use out of both timing your early dings as well as squeeze every level for advantages. Dragon isles, for example require you to spike the a vicious Dragonborn before you can descend and that particular layout makes for very inefficient exploration. Daemonic Library has a similar concept where you have to spike 5 nasty guys before you descent to fight the boss, and both dungeons can, if you know what you're doing, let you come back out of the underground which goblins like as they can't just turn their fodder into CP and take it with them. Those two ought to be good Goblin maps. If you're looking to kick the troll's arse in Havendale bridge, goblins are probably good there too (that's another map which turns nasty with the Vicious token as it's quite cramped). There's probably other places, too.

Lujo wrote:Well, it might say more about the power of the Sorcerer, plus I did say that I lucked into the Crystal Ball, which is arguably a mini-Gnome module in itself :) Restoring my 25 Mana a total of six times (3x by CB, 3x by level-ups) during the bossfights is pretty awesome and makes it so that losing would require a lot of negligience...


Yeah, that 15 mana always did feel like quite the overkill to me. I'm not sure what you were doing with 25 mana, though, I usually get it to 18 right away, then end up with 20 + Mystic Balace which is pretty good regardless of what you're actually playing (1 mana potion = 2 fireballs, 1 glyph conversion = 2 fireballs, 1 ding = 4 fireballs etc.).

It just means I need to pay attention throughout the run, not just the end... :)


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Re: Here's what I think of Goblins:

Postby Darvin on Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:34 pm

If you're looking to kick the troll's arse in Havendale bridge, goblins are probably good there too (that's another map which turns nasty with the Vicious token as it's quite cramped)

A JJ prep works wonders here. WEYTWUT declogs (and can also be used on the troll; 50% failure chance isn't bad for a one-time deal) and chaos avatar is welcome on a level heavy both on corrosion and enemy resistances.
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Re: Here's what I think of Goblins:

Postby Lujo on Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:54 pm

^ Yep. But in general, any situation where you can get cut off from the rest of the map during leveling (but NOT the boss fight) or where exploring too greedily can cause problems down the road, and not exploring can leave you wanting for easy higher level kills or popcorn are quite good for a goblin. Situations where leveling itself is a tall order go without saying (VT runs in dungeons with lots of fat stuff everywhere or simply a lot of enemies which are a pain to kill early or even ever).
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Re: Here's what I think of Goblins:

Postby Lujo on Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:06 am

Just remembered a bunch more things you (or other people) might find interesting. It turned into a textwall (feels deep and honest shame and almost wants to cry). It's actually a pretty good and informative one, though, but jesus christ is it long...

Tinker wrote:plus I did say that I lucked into the Crystal Ball, which is arguably a mini-Gnome module in itself :)


See, the Crystal Ball is one of those things which nicely illustrates the some of the reasons why there's a culture of calling things silly (and ludicrous, and bizzare and superlativey in general). And the tweak that happened to it was also one of the (many) small things we actually could give the devs a standing ovation for as we knew every last bit of what they did with it and why.

The crystal ball breaks spammers. It really does. Well, in combination with Mystera (but also a few other tihngs like Binlor and, well, many things, really). It causes stuff that has sinergy to have more sinergy - you have a large mana pool so you can spam spells which gives you Mystera piety which lets you spam more spells, and this thing turns spell spam into more spell spam which then leads to more spell spam. And it also creates a way to turn money into refills, which is usually limited to a buying a few potions or a keg here and there, and it's one of those features which allows for something pretty incredible all by itself and stacks with anything else. You can also "stack" it with the wizard discount to add more effective discount for some really murderous pisorf play (I've gone Orc Bloodmage on vicious dungeons on more than one occasion, Darvin doesn't credit that glyph enough although I do agree that could be stronger now that the trisword is gone).

But then again it's not just stacking straight up damage on stuff and all that, and it teaches newbies the right way to play casters (well, some casters) and it's genuinely fun. So, as you've seen, you can go "And then I found the Crystal ball and all hell broke lose" or "But I did prep the Crystal Ball, and that's just silly...". It really does add that little extra clause to an achevement, as you know...

However, it was actually way more powerful back in the day, but it had a catch - if you bought it from a shop it had no charges on it. But it didn't scale with uses, so it was always 5 gold per activation (you can imagine how silly that got, that's a bunch of schadenfraude for 5 gold with large mana pools several times during a run). So there was a big old textwally debate (I even made vids that illustrate it but once it was resolved I took them down because it was so crazy in action I didn't want people seeing such a disbalance when you-tubing DD vids. There were also a few "Bloodmages are silly" vids that I took down after they've served their purpose, including a particularly crazy one with a halfling Drac BM on magma mines). So anywho we were having this big ole debate about how Crystal Ball was ludicrous when prepped, and actually quite bad when found in a shop, especially if found late, and we the idiots couldn't really come up with a solution.

The devs just made the cost scale and made it come with 10 charges when you bought it in game. God knows if they had to code extra code for that, but it was such an elegant and nice solution to that whole thing , it definitely nerfed it and it was all great. Well, technically it's still pretty busted but why not have a way to marry gold and spell spam?

Anyway, yeah it's a bit silly.

-----

As for the other thing - You made me think long and hard with the whole "was it a goblin, or was it the CB or was it the Sorcerer", and I think what the problem with figuring goblins out is no fault of Goblins. Very little history lesson in what follows, but unfortunately a lot of text, I apologize in advance.

0)

So history out of the way first - the precedent of one feature having so much sinergy with another feature causing people to pidgenohle stuff is kinda evident with the old trisword halfling. The old trisword made a halfling the current Orc - you drank a potion you got +2 dmg. Halfling converts for potions, drinks potions, gets damage. There might've been a gold cost or something attached but it was negligable, the halfling was the "triling", end of story. You wouldn't even bother thinking about using halflings for anything that didn't involve the trisword, and the trisword was the best choice for anything that could involve it, even if the gnome was ocasionally (or even always) better than the halfling.

1)

What happened to the goblin might be that the assassin is just way too sinergistic with the goblin in almost any situation. Even if other less obviously busted stuff like the Sorcerer is perfectly capable of wrecking sh**t hard, the assassin gets so much out of leveling and is broken so hard by resource-unintensive leveling, that if you do have a choice of class with a goblin and go full objective on things you'll be comparing the benefits of whatever to the benefits of just picking the assassin.

God alone knows all of what actually works really well, or at least is very satisfying and makes you feel clever and like you've seen something new and deligthful, with goblins. Goblin Sorcerers don't need 25 mana, they can wreck very difficult stuff with the much, much more obtainable 20. Wizards can level an keep their glyphs for easier Mystera refills. Bloodmages love both powerleveling to get their spell damage up and save blackspace and tactical leveling since they can REALLY squeeze a ding dry and use blackspace to deal damage directly never wasting exploration and always revealing more stuff to convert and consume, monks benefit enormously from exploration unintensive leveling, crusaders adore having as much popcorn left for the boss fights as possible, fighters are not called the "king of ding" for no reason and are all about getting the most out of as many level ups as you can, paladins love their halpmeh buffing levels and hybrid friendly full restores AND saving as much blackspace as possible, transmuters can manage their CP better than anyone and pull XP out of thin air and tinkers have loads of junk to convert at a low cost.

But none of those guys are on the same plane as what assassin gets from a level up. Because that guy is fairly balanced against any feature in the game except yendor - and goblins. When the vicious token was first introduced most people went around clearing the badge with goblin assassins, I didn't because I've discovered the Martyr wraps bloodmage (it didn't have the "monster has to be revealed" clause) on the playthrough before, and even though the MW got nerfed it got me thinking about goblins outside of the assassin. So I discovered that if you write off the Assassin as absurd, you CAN go places with other kinds of goblins (lots of places, it turned out).

So the real "content killer" isn't actually yendor, it's swift hands (or whatever the ability is called), to be honest. And part of the problem is the problem that the old trisword (and especially the old GG) had in that getting levels is already very beneficial in numerous ways. It's probably really hard to even design a feature which really rewards it, and it's impossible to design a sensible feature which rewards it as much as swift hands does (because it doesn't so much reward it as completely and utterly and blatantly literally break rules right there and then).

What I'd actually propose is a rebuff of Martyr Wraps. I was orginally abusing it and calling for it's nerf, and it was bloody powerful, but I would actually love to see it back as with it the goblin would have a very cool prep. It would also help people discover monks more easily (because it's just incentives the monk needs, he's bloody murderous as he is). I whish someone else could make this a small an concise suggestion because the devs are probably sick to death of readin my textwalls by this point and I don't give a damn about who gets any credit for it if anyone, I would just love it patched. I'd even just reply with a small confirmation about how that's a really good idea and how I was a bit too short-sighted to call for that nerf and how I support the idea (only a few sentences just so they now I won't go on a roll and be a nuisance on the forums about it). A bunch of stuff which made them so abusable back then got nerfed (including both Crsytal Ball and the Bloodmage) and I think it might be pretty safe to restore the "corrodes even if not revealed" clause to help gobbos with their natural issues (as they have great sinergy with the old MW but their playstyle very much makes the current ones unsuited to them).

That would still be really abusable with goblin assassins, ofc, but we can just conclude that swift hands is broken by design and that the goblin assassin is just broken and call it a day. If the sorcere can walk around with 15 starting mana just to make his heal ability more viable regardless of the concequences (which are up there with the brokenest of them, when you really get into it, but you do have to get into it), than this could actually work out fine.

2) Another thing which contributes to goblins possibly being easy to overlook, and this can't really be solved, or rather it's why the Vicious Token is there at all, is the layout of the monsters in a level. Lower level monsters are closer to the exit, higher level ones are further away, and gobbos prey on the higher level stuff in order to save resources (both exploration and popcorn). So what happens in natural play is that the scenario where you could even see the true power of resource unintensive dingage doesn't really occur naturally or costs so much exploration that it balances itself out too well. Simply put, goblins are built for a different difficulty curve, they're actually stronger the harder the game gets. This is why they excel at Vicious Token runs - the lower level monsters become the difficult targets gobbos can actually deal with and that's the kind of environment where they get to play their game and leave almost everyone else in the dust.

They're basically "awesome but impractical", except that, much like Hunter S. Thompson, "when the going gets weird, the weird get going!". The difficulty of the regular game has been scaled down, which is nice, but it simply doesn't let goblins shine.

I've had pretty much the exact same thing - awesome but you never really get to see it - happen with Monks and Vicious GT videos. I made a bunch of VGT vids back in the day, and they all had comentaries and stuff, and some took a good hour or two to complete and there was a lot of cool moves and tricks to pull and the end game was always similar - scraping for any resources you've managed to save by kick ass play and you could really see how much, say, blackspace or bloodswells or general resources each class had left over by the time the boss fight rolled around. I made a monk vid, but I didn't upload it because very soon I couldn't say anything during the commentary but "this is just ridiculous" and "do you see this?" and the monk got to the fight he had enough resources left over to kill several horatios. It would've actually been a rather boring video and would make the game look really unbalanced so I didn't upload it because there's stuff which really does challenge monks in the game and there are actually very few opportunities to see exactly just how far behind he leaves pretty much any other class in the game (and let me tell you it's very, VERY far). And it's not that VGT is in fact particularly favorable to monks, you do have to understand quite a few things to get anything to get of the ground in there, it's just that once they do get off the ground they don't come down easily and the regular dungeons simply end.

And the exact exact same thing happened with early TT worship - when all the other gods got buffed and the game also became easier, the advantages of early TT worship in order to use him as a piety farm kinda diminished in value as the hoops you were ment to jump, but which he made a lot easier kinda disappeared. (His early worship also got nerfed by having the gold farming aspect reigned in, he might also be due for a tweak or two).

3) And the third thing which probably contributes to goblins maybe being difficult to appreciate also affects many other features. See, as opposed to most other CP bonuses (not all) theirs isn't fire and forget. You need access to your CP junk. But what's more of a thing is what also affects some gods and most popcorn munchers and that's scenarios where you get cut off from your popcorn or where what they do doesn't affect things on other dungeon levels (some gods have / have had issues with this). Places which cause this are Naga City and Namtars Lair, primarily, but it can also happen in the labyrinth, shifting passages or anywhere where there are blinkers. And it can get really weird in the Cursed Oasis.

This is probably part of a reason why Naga City had the monsters and the shops installed (back in the day it was only altars), not because of goblins but because of other folks who get hurt by being cut off from resources their popcorn and junk.

It's not that you can't go places with a goblin in Namtars Lair or Naga City, it's that their playstyle clashes with what those places expect and reward.




So, err, I wrote a lot. None of it is really overblown, I do hope I didn't bore or discourage you guys too much, Tinker (and well, Dislekcia earlier) was suggesting trying to be nice, so I tried, but you know how that always goes with me...
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