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QCF Design Community • View topic - Here's what I think of Goblins:


Here's what I think of Goblins:

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Here's what I think of Goblins:

Postby Tinker on Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:36 pm

I've been neglecting Goblins, probably playing them less than 5% of the time. I've recently read recommendations for Goblins both for Fighter and Sorcerer. So I played my last couple of games as a Goblin, trying a couple of classes (including the two recommended).

I think that Goblins play differently than the other races because their conversion bonus neither gives a perma-bonus (Orc/Human/Elf/Dwarf) nor a spike (Halfling/Gnome); but rather it's kind of like a permanent bonus (you keep the XP you gain), but not really because at level 10 they are still weaker than the other races; and it's kind of like a spike beacuse of the full-restores, but again, not really, because you only gain 1 extra full-restore, the rest is just timed better. So it's primarily a speed/timing thing - the Goblin can better control the pace of advancement through converting.

It did *feel* good to play the Goblin. However I caught myself getting sloppy on popcorn management - why bother planning carefully, when I can just break a glyph and level, using the full-restore to spike a higher-level foe or boss in the process. I think part of the reason why playing Goblins feels so good is that there is a guaranteed bonus - since conversion timing is critical, throughout the game I'm looking for opportunities to convert, and get the maximum benefit from it (i.e. spike a 4-level higher monster). Whereas with a Gnome I can finish the level without quaffing any of the bonus potions, essentially getting no benefit from converting.

I tested a couple of Hard levels, but just to see how things pan out on a Vicious level I went through Naga City with the Goblin Sorcerer of Mystera. It felt like a breeze; I lucked into the Crystal Ball, so I had massive mana spike and I won the level easily. Then I tried, as a reference, the same level with the Gnome Sorcerer of Mystera, and I won similarly easily. Actually it did not *feel* as easy, nevertheless, objectively, it was easier despite not feeling so, because I had more resources left in the end. I did not miss the Goblin's bonus. When I got tight, I could always level off low-level monsters. However, having an inordinate amount of extra Mana potions made me play much more confidently against the last bosses (despite missing the Crystal Ball!).

So either I'm still completely clueless about what makes Goblins so awesome, or they're just not my thing... In any case, I consider them more of a niche race, awesome with Assassins, outshining any other race on short levels, and generally pleasant all around, but resembling the Dwarf in my book from the perspective that the bonus they offer (bonus XP at the right time) is relatively easily attainable with other races on most levels, by playing the right way.
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Re: Here's what I think of Goblins:

Postby TheSchachter on Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:18 am

I'm far from an expert on Goblins, but I don't know if Naga City is really the best place to show them off. Naga City is one of those dungeons (not unlike Vicious Gaan-Telet) where the core challenge is an endurance gauntlet against multiple lvl 10 foes and regenerating resources (blackspace + popcorn). The Goblin's potential isn't exactly wasted there, but humans, orcs, and to a lesser degree halflings/gnomes (with boosted HP/MP) ultimately get more staying power in a scenario like that, from my experience.

Goblins absolutely shine in scenarios where fighting high-level enemies is difficult - all Vicious Token scenarios, for instance, and I like having them for Namtar's Lair and Vicious Halls of Steel for their painful monster set. They get to set up level-up canons in situations where other classes can't (or don't want to), which is a big deal in the aformentioned scenarios where popcorn isn't easy to come by. The extra level-ups also make it easier to use higher-level monsters as popcorn, for that matter, and let's not forget that they also make your attacks and fireballs stronger (it took the Vicious token to make me remember that level ups aren't *only* for full-restores :P).

It's easy to think of them as some kind of gnome/halfling hybrid, but that would be missing many overlooked aspects of goblin play. I'd say it's the most complex race by far when it comes to using it to the fullest. (Well, Dwarves are also complicated to use well, but that's a different story altogether).

I'm sure there'll be other players stopping by here to better explain the merit of the Goblins, but that's a start.
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Re: Here's what I think of Goblins:

Postby Darvin on Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:02 am

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Re: Here's what I think of Goblins:

Postby Lujo on Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:39 am

The thing with Naga City is that it cuts you off from most of your shops and glyphs for the end fight which is very bad for a timing race like a goblin (or classes like transmuter and bloodmage), and favorable to other races because they can take the benefits of their conversion with them. Another thing with it is that you get to fight regular monsters and are supposed to get to a certain level before you start fighting bosses and that it's bosses are regular ones with easy (or normal?) stats, which isn't really representative of either Vicious Dungeon or Vicious Token play and is distinctly unfavorable to goblins. Another thing is that big-mana pool spellcasters are actually exploration intensive and Naga City refreshes blackspace which often isn't the case in vicious runs.

You breezing it with a goblin actually says quite a bit about you as a player and also the power of the goblin. :)

Do you have the vicious token unlocked and are you doing vicious token runs? I'm sure many can be done with various clasess and races, but doing them with goblins is significantly easier than with others most of the time. They turn the regular dungeons into these tiny cramped nightmares where stuff is way to difficult to fight and most other races and many classes have to jump though hoops to level (especially past a certain point). Goblins just faceroll those. So the thing with goblins is not so much about them being underpowered, as much as the regular "leveling" part of the game being TOO EASY!!!!11!11!! XD (A similar case in the realm of classes is the monk - other things look about on par until the game actually gives you a chance to see just how much of a spread there really is)

Also, I've been analyzing the sorcerer throughout the beta, and he hasn't been changed much (or rather at all apart from Bloodtopowa affecting him differently than it does other races). He's quite an anomaly in one important regard and that is that his huge mana pool is actually worth a lot more than it seems. If you prep Mystera and a subdungeon early, you're at 17 or even 18 mana very, very, VERY quickly. Way before anyone else, and with so little exploration that you might as well be starting with it. This has actually "obsoleted" elves for me because if I need a large mana pool spellcaster I can get an 18 mana one pretty effortlessly simply by being a sorcerer. 18 mana with no exploration and very little in the way of preps you wouldn't use anyway is a huge deal. Goblins can not only regen this entire mana pool wihout fighting anything (so even more exploration saved potentially), but the only mana limit they care about is the "fireball per full pool" limit, and not the potion restore thresholds.

I'm not sure what you mean by having difficulty caring about optimal popcorn play because you can level up - popcorn is for more than leveling, and easy leveling helps advanced popcorn play. Goblins worship TT more easily than anyone else does because their CP thing instantly turns stuff into popcorn, making them the no.1 early TT worshipers. A very fun thing to do is to go TT gobbo and squeeze every bit of Tikki's Edge (about 3-4 hits). Any popcorn munching class - Bloodmage, Fighter, Crusader maybe others depending on deity, if goblin, can set themselves up with situations other classes simply can't. Bloodmage is pretty much notorious for REALLY scaling well with levels and having a lot of juice to squeeze out of any ding but also a lot of need to save exploration for B2P use, and as opposed to Halflings who make silly good early Bloodmages (with health boosts), Goblins can make for crazy efficient and "curvy" bloodmages (I've done VGT with a goblin BM I think, oddly enough. I did have the old Martyr Wraps back then, but it's still pretty viable on non-endurance runs).

Also, and this isn't mentioned often - damage resistance guys scale well with levels, and the trick with them in really hard dungeons (as much as there is one with the mechanic being as powerful is you can get it going) is often getting those levels. It's not often attempted because of the obvious benefits of the damage races, but Goblin paladins and berserkers are at the very least playable (and goblin Crusaders are definitely playable, Patches FTW + notorious popcorn munchers, the more you have at end game the better).
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Re: Here's what I think of Goblins:

Postby Lujo on Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:49 pm

One more thing I forgot to mention, it's a tidbit really but there's places where it pays off enormously - the less stuff you need to kill (popcorn especially) the more popcorn you've got left, right? And a goblin can use some really low-resource intensity level catapults to spike down something really, really big (especially if Sorcerer or Bloodmage). Among many things which allow you to benefit from this is a small triket called "the blue bead". It's essentially a 12 (or something) mana restored for munching up that popcorn and dishing out a whooping 5 gold (if memory serves me right). Mystic Balance Goblin Bloodmages love that thing.
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Re: Here's what I think of Goblins:

Postby Tinker on Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:28 am

"Thinker", just without the "ache".
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Re: Here's what I think of Goblins:

Postby Lujo on Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:32 pm

I almost got pwned by Shifty Brickwork!
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Re: Here's what I think of Goblins:

Postby Darvin on Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:34 pm

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Re: Here's what I think of Goblins:

Postby Lujo on Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:54 pm

^ Yep. But in general, any situation where you can get cut off from the rest of the map during leveling (but NOT the boss fight) or where exploring too greedily can cause problems down the road, and not exploring can leave you wanting for easy higher level kills or popcorn are quite good for a goblin. Situations where leveling itself is a tall order go without saying (VT runs in dungeons with lots of fat stuff everywhere or simply a lot of enemies which are a pain to kill early or even ever).
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Re: Here's what I think of Goblins:

Postby Lujo on Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:06 am

I almost got pwned by Shifty Brickwork!
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