Halflings - all shennanigans all the time

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Re: Halflings - all shennanigans all the time

Postby dislekcia on Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:05 pm

Lujo. This is a warning.

Tone yourself down or get banned. Again. A forum is about interacting with other people, not replying to yourself so much that you think everyone agrees with you. Multiple replies are not okay.
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Re: Halflings - all shennanigans all the time

Postby Tinker on Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:33 pm

Ok, I wasn't sure if I'm going to answer, because I don't want anyone to get banned. I do have a few points to add though, so please excuse my insolence! :)

Lujo wrote:Especially on a Berserker where every health potion is a Reflex potion (similar to a degree as with priests), provided you're fighting magic attack monsters, but even 2 health potions letting you get an extra hit in on something with build in +20% damage (and whatever you've got from whatever god) = and aditional Reflex potion. And people think Gnomes are brutal for the extra fireball or two :lol:

Ok, I have a generic point to make (and it's not just as an enlightened Gnome-lover who is trying to educate someone misguided enough to love Halflings instead :lol: ). Fair warning, this is my stab at talking about big things like game balance and whatnot, just tell me if I need to stick to doing other stuff instead...

There is a fundamental asymetry in the game between how Health and Mana work. Health pays for the cost of Melee Attacks, whose effectiveness is governed by your Damage; Mana pays for the cost of (let's say) Fireballs, whose effectiveness is governed by your Level. There are ways to impact fireball effectiveness or cost but it's limited. However you can reduce health cost of attacks by up to 65% (75%) via resistances. Yes there are gazillion other factors but that's the basic setup. Being able to restore large amounts of Health - while can be very useful - is secondary in importance to your resistances, which allow you to prevent spending health to begin with. Conversely, being able to restore large amounts of mana is a really good caster strategy, whether via going Gnome, or using B2P, or Refreshment, or whatnot.

So if anything is detracting from the dominance of Halflings (whose ability on paper is mind-blowing: restore more of the one critical resource that literally means the difference between life and death), it's resistances. And not because a Halfling with resists is inferior to an Orc with resists; because the %-based health restoration would mean that if you have resistances, the health restoration affords even more hits. So a high-resists Halfling will always outshine a high-resists Orc in a standing fight, and as long as you only have a few of those, like on a map with only a handful of bosses. But in the sense that given sufficient resists, health becomes a non-issue, and the actual combat effectiveness of the character will depend only on two factors: melee damage and resistances, with health regeneration factoring in even before Health Potions would.

Ok, shutting up now. :)

There were Drac, Pactmaker and all the Shops on the board and I didn't touch any of that. I prepped Bet on Boss, the alchemist prep was a brain fart as I was chasing Miser anyway, and my item of choice was... Nothing. I even had leftover stuff without touching other gods and compromising Miser, but I suppose that would've gone into defeating a tougher boss. Did exactly nothing that wasn't described in the wiki allready, except, you know, occasionally whoopaz stuff. Would've been higher level if the boss did more damage, because I would've used more potions to level instead of using them against the boss.

With this few elements to juggle, there's not enough strategy to it to make ME a big factor, or at least any bigger a factor than anyone following the wiki advice on general berserker play would be. Heck, this is the first time I used Apheelsick on a Berserker and I got THAT from the wiki - nice one, btw, really sinergizes nicely with Berserkers.

I have a more specific point here. The fewer resources you afford yourself, the better, generally, potion races will fare. If you go heavy on preps, Elves may rock the place, but if you want to go Purist, your Gnome will have a much steadier output, that is - more importantly - more spikeable for the end game. Which is why I won most of the Class Challenges with either a Gnome or a Halfling. If you want to compare general applicability, you're probably better off not limiting preps, but rather going for tougher maps (not that there's anything to prove, anyway, so don't take it as a challenge - if you want challenge, there's already a standing one about proving the non-uselessness of Goblins... :twisted: ).
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Re: Halflings - all shennanigans all the time

Postby Lujo on Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:44 pm

I've tried several times to reply, but I'll have to think of how to, or even whether to answer to this. The health strats part I wrote several times on these boards - I wrote it sometimes during the previos month in a dwarf discussion last I remember. Darvin understood immediately what I was talking about with "how did we miss halflings". They don't convert for health, they covert for refills. Players will jump through hoops backwards to get refills - yet halflings have only 2 entries out of 15 theoretically possible on the wiki, and the person involved with the wiki gets panicky about them getting more.

With sufficient resists max health becomes a non-issue, but health refills of any kind become exponentially more powerful - which is the opposite of that. You are misunderstanding something deeply, or several things, which isn't a problem, but you're also editing the wiki, which... probably isn't MY problem.

I pointed you to Goblins once, you kept on chasing gnomes as if someone was disputing them. The gnome tinker isn't tier 2, it's tier 1. So's the Halfling Berserker. Both are provable by science. There's very little on the wiki that I'm not aware of, but there's a lot that I'm aware of that has no reason not being on the wiki. I can't make a reply D won't interpret as worth banning me for unless you realize one thing - that wiki is way more affected by a particular perspective or playstyle than I am.

This isn't intuitive, though, so I'll leave you with that. This is still a halfling thread.
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Re: Halflings - all shennanigans all the time

Postby Tinker on Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:38 pm

Lujo wrote:Players will jump through hoops backwards to get refills - yet halflings have only 2 entries out of 15 theoretically possible on the wiki, and the person involved with the wiki gets panicky about them getting more.

In all fairness, I have no more jurisdiction over what gets on the Wiki than anyone else. The only reason why some of the content came from my "pen" is because it was missing. If anything, I'm happy if more experienced players write there more.

Also, I tried to be tongue-in-cheek with my original post on this topic, obviously failing miserably in coming accross so. I've actually played Halfling Berserkers in the past, I still prefer Orc, and I wouldn't be surprised if the consensus also preferred Orc, but Halfling is also clearly viable for any of the brawler classes, especially in low-prep scenarios. It's good that it was added onto the wiki.

With sufficient resists max health becomes a non-issue, health refills of any kind become exponentially more powerful. You are misunderstanding something deeply, or several things, which isn't a problem, but you're also editing the wiki, which... probably isn't MY problem.

I think this is pretty much what I wrote in my second paragraph. But anyway, point taken, I'm better off fireballing Matrons than debating strategy... :)
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Re: Halflings - all shennanigans all the time

Postby Lujo on Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:45 pm

I'm sorry, I don't mind the tongue in cheekiness, if I can let loose with big words and emotions, but, you know, authority crackdown.

Anywho - Halling Berserkers have an important facet to them, and I'm not into debating stuff much, this is more ov something I went and tested. You don't have to play so glass cannony and pick your targets so carefully as you would with other berserkers. You can choose to fight phys damage stuff, as you have the refills to back you up wth that. This eases play with them a lot, and helps smooth out the average run. You're simply less reliant on being in a dungeon where the monster roster favors you, or in need to be extra careful about picking your fights. This actually counts for a lot - Orc makes a better specialist, "win more" berserker, Halfling makes a better general purpose one (even more so because you're not pressured to convert your glyphs).

That's no pissing contest material, that's actual hints and tips.

You can think of it this way - Orc is the deeps glass cannon build that's brutal when you're going into dungeon where you know you've got a lot of magic damage enemies and easy acess to them so you can pick your fights. Halfling is a more well rounded build that shores up your deficiencies almost perfectly, where the magic damage stuff is the ocasional prize when you can find it - but you can even bring in a RBS and tangle with Goos and still keep the +20% damage, even if the map is cramped, and the roster unfavorable or wholly random, and you get to use glyphs and stuff.

It's very good to be aware of this, as it makes Berserker a much more relaxed and deeper option in way more runs. And the potions also sinergize with the resistance vs magic, so they are both agressive builds which destroy magic damage oponents with ease.
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Re: Halflings - all shennanigans all the time

Postby Astral on Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:10 pm

For a long a time I was also on the opinion that high resists make you not care about health any more. This mentality kept me from realizing the true strength of Dwarves.
Sure, if you have big damage with high resistances you can regenfight. But if you try to kill something too big (in level) you may get annoyed by the big amount of blackspace you have to spend to kill that monster, or if it has double regen it's downright impossible. This is where having extra health pays out. If your health is so high you can click things to death you use no consumables and save blackspace too.

'The true way' of playing a Dwarf shouldn't be about restore managing, but res stacking first. If you do the math you can see that the Dwarven bonus is the strongest in brawling. If you used glpyhs for one time hit effects, then Humans/Orcs would take the lead, but only if no resistances are on the table. As you get closer to the resist cap those glyphs become wasteful, and while Halpme using Orcs/Humans are really good, the sheer amount of health of a Dwarf wins over it.
Sounds silly, but the true niche of Dwarves is being kickass res and health stacking semi-warmonger brawlers. Since most glyphs are pointless, but health is very good with max resist, they benefit a lot from CP-mongering.

It's often mentioned that Halflings are better than Dwarfs, since gods/items can shower you with health so the great amount of refills makes them better. But Dwarves should be on the lookout for res stacking, so they don't even need those refills in the first place. Halflings can res stack if they want to, but it will interfere with health stacking, so they won't reach the point where they can murder stuff without consumables.

Out of curiosity, how many of you tried a Dwarf Pala of Dracul with DS and Patches with the intent of health + res stacking?

As far as flexibility and general purpose use goes, I'd rather tinker with my god on a Berserker than my race. GG Orc Berserker has resist ignore and refill to solve any problem, and since you don't go Taurog you can freely spam glyphs too.
Whurgarble is a simple yet reliable prep, it's really handy in regenfighting magical foes and on top generates you piety as well.
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Re: Halflings - all shennanigans all the time

Postby Lujo on Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:45 pm

^ How do Dwarves fit into this discussion at all? :lol:

Ofc more health + more resists is better than less health + more resists. And what does "brawling" mean at all? I hate that term with a passion, linguistically it implies fighting several people at once or several people fighting at once, not a protracted fight between two people. And it also conflates res stacking and regen fighting which makes it unclear to me what you're trying to say.

If you mean regen fighting, than, well, no, Dwarves aren't any better at it than anyone else is. As long as you have blacskpace. If it doesn't involve blackspace - it's not regen fighting. But yes, they're really good with a lot of resists on them, I've done that in Naga City with Binlor (didn't even farm his resists much, took him for the damage and occasional stoneskins, not saying that's the best way to play them). I do it with JJ Dwarf Monks all the time. But if you're dumping a big health pool with resists into someone, you need to regen fight them less to finish it off, but you also don't need to regen fight at all, just ding or refill will do. And you still need to refill that pool.

Not saying that they're not good with resists, or ever that stacking resists isn't the strongest possible thing to do with a Dwarf. Or that a Dwarf with a lot of Resists isn't strong. But he's just a fat ole guy with a lot of resists and health, who isn't dangerous in that situation?

And yeah, they CAN get more initial hits in, and that is pretty nice.

---

As for the actual topic - if you'd rather change your god than the race, that's Orc Berserkers, you, and also complicating things. Getting flexibility and refills while not budging from Taurog is a pretty sweet deal. And also - picking a different god for a Berserker never was a problem or controversial, picking a different race was. And the only halflings which actually care for stacking Health are Rogues and Bloodmages, and not all that much.

And halflings don't care about getting to the point where they kill stuff without consumables, because they've got the consumables. And they can always kill stuff without consumables, they use them to get better or more important kills.
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Re: Halflings - all shennanigans all the time

Postby Astral on Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:53 pm

I was replying to this, and combining max health with high resist is the specialty of Dwarfs.
'With sufficient resists max health becomes a non-issue, health refills of any kind become exponentially more powerful.'

Sorry for using such an obscure term as brwaling, I just don't have a better word for it. I mean a melee fighting style where you hit your foe several times without exploring at all. So you just empty your 2 bars. What is the word you use to describe it?
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Re: Halflings - all shennanigans all the time

Postby Lujo on Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:56 pm

Ah, well, sorry, I do kinda subscribe to the "max health's a non issue for res stackers who intend to regenfight". Alltough you do have a point in the sense that a larger initial strike, or just health spiking someone that way can be petty powerful.

And what you describe is... You hit stuff? Like Melee? :lol: What other kind of, well, close quarters combat is there? I mean that's just res stacking, what it looks like when you turn it into a health spike. Halflings do the exact same thing, except you don't have to get your health up, you use consumables - but it takes way less dedication/exploration and you keep your glyphs and all that.

I mean - that's kinda why I say Dwarfs don't need a buff that'd make them more powerful late game - they can really kick ass late game, where halflings beat them is that you kinda get the benefits of that when you need it without going CP/exploration/leveling mad.
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Re: Halflings - all shennanigans all the time

Postby Astral on Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:06 pm

I like to have different words for the different types of combat :P
- Striking is getting in hits on your foes via methods where you ignore your health
- 'Brawling' is duking it out and spending your bars
- Regenfighting...

And for the phases of combat too:
'Brawling' (optional on strikers) --> Regenfighting (optional) --> Finishing
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