Any hope for a tweak patch?

[Lujo]

All this discoussioning and throwing builds and history and gnomes all over the place got me thinking about how it's been a long time since the devs concluded that the damned game wasn't getting made in time and that balance discussions have turned into navel gazing and decided to pull the plug on balance tweaks. However, a bunch of stuff happened at the tail end of balance testing which kinda never got it's effects properly tested (not that the effects weren't tested, the game had been played a lot by a lot of people since then it's just that not much had been done on the changing stuff front). And, well, I think the game could use a stealthy little tweak patch at one point (or even an interest stirring promo patch, eh?).

Reason I say this is that stuff that actually might warrant a bit of rejiggering has cropped up and some known stuff never got a proper looking into. Kicking the old trisword out of the meta really did shake things up, for one thing, and a few things which seemed sensible enough to call nerfs (or buffs) on at the time it was done got affected by other buffs and nerfs and the general scaling down of difficulty which happened at one point also shook up things quite a bit. So why not have a thread where were vets can attempt to redeem for their beta testing sins, and new folks can drop their suggestions (so that we can see if it's more about intuitiveness and obscureness of relevant features or that stuff actually could use a bit of a buff/nerf/tweak). Or give support to the suggestions by supplying relevant info on what late beta changes have affected which might warrant this or that move.

So, here's my stuff, unless this has already been done and I'm not aware of it. I'll mostly try to limit myself to stuff I had a hand in nerfing or buffing before:

- Martyr wraps could get their mass corrosion regardless of exploration back

REASON: A lot of stuff which it was abuseable with got nerfed in the meantime (Bloodmages, Crystal Ball)
PROS: They were a great general prep for goblins, and they currently aren't.
CONS: They are still busted with Assassins, but so is basically everything.

- Tikki Tooki could actually get some of his early worship perks back

REASON: He used to be an overly perky piety farm at a time when getting piety was/seemed more difficult, and poison was over the top (but monks, poison and the trisword got nerfed and he's been moved behind EM in unlock sequence so people are less likely to just gold farm him instead of discovering other gods - and there's way more gold around than there used to be)
PROS: With every god being very self sufficient in terms of piety gain and some of the worst abusers of poison (and poison itself) getting nerfed (along with nerfs to the trisword), Early TT worship could use a buff to make it easier for people to get to know him (he's still bloody strong, just a hard to get into)
CONS: None, really. He really does need a bit of a buff.

- Mystera could use either a proper prep penalty, or something else

REASON: She's just too damned good. I don't mind an early spellcasting deity being easy to use and all that, but she's way too abusable with too little effort. She makes glyph spam lead to more glyph spam and also adds just about any sort of utility you can imagine to it.
PROS: Well, it might make a million other spellcasting options (including TT of all things) look better, and make a few spelcasting classes a bit less over the top. She's way too powerful for an early, uncomplex deity (contrast Taurog and GG who actually have limitations, or EM who while powerful requires adapting your playstyle to her)
CONS: Eh, none I can think of, she's been way too good even back when we were bumming Weakening and Flames buffs (which would've been fine, I think, if the damned thing wasn't so effortlessly broken otherwise)

- We may have misjudged the power of potion races, they might actually warrant nerfs even with the trisword gone (Or rather something about them or stuff they play good with or even just gnomes play good with is off)

REASON: We've been systematically ignoring the somewhat absurd power of halflings and gnomes because of the trisword. The halflings seem to have got a lot of love planted all over the place (and the very late additions of Avatar's Codex and the Cauldron, as well as the EM reword turned halflings into complete creeps), while gnomes seem to be the de facto rulers of DD cheezing simply because it seems to be too easy to tack mana potion spam onto any other mana refil engines
PROS: Well, Tinker's a sharp girl and if she's proven anything it's that you can always go "yes, but gnomes!" to one-up just about any other race in just about any build or discussion. And while I do adore Halflings and have enjoyed all the cool toys which they're great at exploiting, discovering that you can just potion spam any boss down is actually kinda disapointing. It makes the rest of their mcguyvering kinda optional when you have to constantly ask yourself "yeah, but why got through all that trouble when you can just hoard and spike anything anyway?"
CONS: It would lower their end game spiking power somewhat. It's not so much of a problem for gnomes who always stack it with 2-3 other ways to do the same thing, but halflings actually have a bit of a harder time stacking their spike with other sources of health refills (because Drac and GG add a piety cost to it). So it might actually be solvable in different ways.

A THOUGHT: It seems to me that there's a bit of a screwup with the way how JJ and Mystera let Gnomes stack their potion spiking with their stuff, while GG and Drac give the Halflings a hard time. Yes, they do reward potion conversion, but making good on a health spike means you need health, resists, damage and refills. You don't get all you need from a single source, and even if you get some of what you need it still takes god hopping and gods still give you a hard time. With spellcasting it's completely different, you get all the tools from a single god, who doesn't give you a hard time about using the tools (heck, they reward it), and then you can spike with potions on top of whatever else. The main glyph can be prepped and finding others only costs exploration, and gnomes conveniently spike without exploration making them all upside in every possible way. There's something wrong there somewhere, but it would take a textwally discussion to get to the bottom of it and the implications. But it helps explain in part why Mystera is so easy to break. I think I'm onto something here.

- Sorcerors mana pool is too damned large, and him being untouched might not have actually been the best move

REASON: It's just way too easy to abuse it with Mystera and a subdungeon. Arguably, that's just "one" build, but dear lord is it silly. It's making elves look bad. 15 is a neat number and all that, but it turns into 18 with very little effort, goes 20 with mystic balance equally easily by some point in the run, and you can spam so hard that you're probably taken everything and are spamming weakenings just for a lark.
PROS: Well, there's a small clustef**k of balance issues with spelcasting, and a tweak to the Sorceror's skillset might help resolve it and open up space for other content to shine. I'm sure the Sorcerer wasn't really meant to be this good because of that one ability, but it makes it way too profitable to play him as a pure spellcaster rather than the hybrid he is supposed to be (in stead of actually enabling his heal to work what I assume it was supposed to do).
CONS: Well, if the entire skillset ware tweaked none that I can see.

- Prestige levels might need something done about them

REASON: I'm not sure how exactly XP requirements scale past lvl 10, but you are NOT getting your effort's worth that much after a certain point. Up to level 10, it gives both stats and refills, but past that point it's just refills and caps become hard to pop. This is making goblins seem terrible comapared to gnomes for a variety of reasons (there's a thread) - because gnomes can get more refill for their effort even with only refilling 40% of their mana pool compared to goblins refilling 100% of everything.
PROS: A proper and well thought out adjustment to how XP works past lvl 10 would actually make goblins way more attractive, and their CP bonus way more sensible. I'd actually love to get to the bottom of just how exactly this works, what it affects and what the right thing to do exactly would be.
CONS: It obviously makes Goblin Assassins more busted than they are, but who cares, you can't balance swift hands anyway.



Hoping for thoughts, opinions and contributions, and, dear lord, do I hope that by some miracle this actually leads to a patch.

[Kami]

Well here are my thoughts

Martyr wraps: I think it is a good item which don't needs any tweaks. Stacking corrosion can get powerfull.

Tikki Tooki: I think starting piety would be good, but not more or else halflings are profiting way to much.

Mystera: I'm with you she is too strong she really needs a nerf.

Potion races: Well I think figurung out the strats should give you an edge.
I haven't abused them correctly yet but I think they may need a slight nerf.

Soccerer: Well he gets so powerfull through mystera and you can get 20 mana easily through other means ,but he needs some mana nerf.

Prestige: I think prestige levels are fine buffing them would make gantalet easier.


My suggestions

Make Earthmothers punishment more daunting
Her punishment is to tame she needs some lasting effect.
To balance it plant punishments should stay the same.

Buff stone sigil (a bit)
I think it is really not that worth while to buy it for some piety.
It could youse a slight buff.

I think thats all what I think needs a nerf/buff for now.

[Darvin]

[Blovski]

Thoughts:

Overall - balance is pretty beautiful. Yeah it has its quirks and curios but I think that's the hallmark of any good game.

<3

Blovsk's specifics:

GG is kinda off right now. I don't feel Enlightenment as it stands with the current Absolution cost should be 100 vs. Chaos Avatar's 80, with all of the greater late game opportunity costs GG has over JJ (potions, less piety farming options to convert out). Maybe it's that his prep penalty in terms of piety really hits you so he's harder to work into a planned strat. I'd like either to see Absolution reduced a little or Enlightenment reduced a little or maybe bigger piety gains from burning/undead kills/mana-burn/poison or the like to counteract it.

Cleansing is still a boon and a half and he works pretty well for Paladins and in big scenarios like Naga City. Not saying he's underpowered but I think his boons internally are a bit wonky and I don't think playing him as the boons intended/monotheistically is very appealing in a standard scenario.

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Binlor's resist-knocker-away (Stone Heart?) is incredibly situational. Better than it was but now with the needing to see the things you want to resist down AND needing the wall visibility it's really not workable into strategies. I think one or the other would be a good solution. He's still a great god and all. It ain't hugely broke, just not really of much use for planning.

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Dwarves remain very niche, though fairly good at those very niche things. Slightly lower CP threshold might help them out?

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Items

Stone Sigil is a little underwhelming for the cost/cp/whatever.

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Other people's points

Lord Textwall

Martyr Wraps is fine by me. It's neither super-niche nor use-everywhere. A few extra damage on every fireball/pisorf goes a long way. I think it works imo.

Tikki still works OK for early use and is a pretty great late-game god with a lot of dungeon/boss-specific utility, and has a really good free glyph. I've no problem with him right now, personally.

Mystera is honestly OK by me. Wouldn't mind a slightly bigger prep penalty but I don't really see her as broken given most of her boons are, if anything, slightly underwhelming.

Prestige pools - would kinda bust all the big long-term dungeons in terms of difficulty. Goblins' advantage is where XP is a really tight resource, obviously they won't shine as much as other classes when.

Potion races - noone's asking to nerf Orcs from their good at everything status. Not really sure I've a problem with either of them; I'm delighted they work in scenarios where people have conventionally gone for humans/orcs mostly for the obvious ease-of-use, big-damage + regenning thing. I know they have a lot of extra tricks you can throw in but I'm not really sure they're out of whack against humans/orcs rather than just better than we used to think

Sorcerors - Yeah, they are very good. I'm not sure they ruin elves because elves have a lot of cool combos (Warlord/GG fighter/Transmuter) but I wouldn't be too sad if they got a small nip to the huge mana pool.

Prestige levels - nonononono. Would mess up all the big scenarios in terms of difficulty and balance. Goblins are best for scenarios where XP is kinda starved. Think making them just generally get a higher power level is going to throw them out of kilter somewhat.

@Lujo, in terms of hyperbole/tact y'know, maybe leave out the 'by some miracle' stuff and the 'minor clusterf**k of balance' thing. I know you don't mean to sound a bit snippy/dismissive but I can see how it comes across like that.
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Kami I kinda like that EM's penalty is non-ruinous since it means you can also ruin all her plants if you have to. As Darvin notes it's kinda part of her personality for me.

100% on the Stone Sigil. Buff or cost decrease would be lovely.

[Tinker]

I don't think that nerfing anything is really easy for a game that's been out there, unless it's grossly OP. Since DD is single player, and nothing sticks out significantly more than anything else, I think the only realistic option is to buff things (or, to mostly buff things, and maybe nerf a couple of things, and position it as a mostly-buffing balance patch).

Anyway, my 2 cents, and consider that this is coming from somoene who is not a vet...

1. Races: Dwarf CP could go down to maybe as low as 60 or so. I think Gobs are less useful by definition than other races, but most people seem to think they're fine, so it may just be my perception. One difficulty with Dwarves and Elves is that regen doesn't scale. So your human will be fully restored after 13 tiles, whereas your Elf or Dwarf may need 30. I don't necessarily agree that potion races need a nerf. They are probably the strongest races, but there is also a learning curve associated with playing them; plus, their relative strength also comes a bit from lack of real competition... Elves and Dwarves being somewhat dysfunctional, Humans being too generic, and Goblins being... Goblins, I guess.

2. Deities: Mystera is strong because she is not quirky. She is unobtrusively and consistently supporting spellcasting, whereas other deities sometimes force you to go out of your way to avoid their wrath, or force you into a hybrid strategy. TT early worship is something I seldom do, maybe a little boost could be fine, but I'm not even sure that every deity needs to be equally good early game and late game (it helps if all are viable at least for some strategies, though). I also had the impression that Enlightenment is just not worth it in most cases. It could cost a bit less especially considering how GG normally gains Piety in very small or very big chunks, and hitting 100 can be difficult without losing Piety.

3. Items: Stone Sigil is one of the few items that seems grossly outside of the standard curve items seem to follow, which is that somehow usefulness * CP = price (i.e. more useful items are usually more expensive, or if cheaper have poor CP, or if less useful at least give good CP). To make sure everything is very usable in some situation. SS has high price, poor CP and mediocre effect (compare to Agnostic Collar, which costs a bit more, but has much better CP and yields much more Piety in most cases). So it's basically a permanent occupant in a Bezaar return slot. I would love MW buffed back, but I'm a bit afraid it would just make Greenblood weak in comparison (and, more importantly, be too strong together with it).

4. Classes: I agree that Sorcerer is one of the top spellcasters today. Maybe lower Mana Pool and scaling MP->HP regen would keep her play like a hybrid throughout. That said, I don't mind that there are differences between the classes. There will be times when you'll be like, I want firepower, I go Gnome Sorcerer. But that will not invalidate Wizard, Bloodmage, Fighter, or any other spellcaster build. It just means you have an option to have huge mana pool right out of the box. Heck, I sometimes find the Bloodmage outright scary thanks to its 20% (boostable) sanguine. Or the Transmuter thanks to its CP-farming. Or the aforementioned assassin. I think, the ideal scenario is, if every single class has something that it does better than any other class - without invalidating the other classes.

[Lujo]

^ Good points everyone (including Blovski's tips about my speech patterns, v. good point).

Anyway a few short clarifications (hopefully):

- Martyr Wraps - They do work with some stuff right now and would add a layer of silly to the EM corrosion spam, yes but most of that stuff works well enough already. The current setup is kinda at odds with the goblin specialty of not having to explore that much in orded to level, I just thought having it play that up again might not mess up anything which isn't already above the curve. I got the feeling that the common abusers wouldn't get too buffed and still have to juggle prepping it against other stuff. Dunno.

- GG - yeah, smoothing out his boons a tiny bit might make it more beneficial to actually play HIM rather than prepping him "just 'cause", and getting a bunch of free piety to jump into someone else but not quite enough to actually, you know, use him dedicatedly instead of just for utility/piety farm. Again, dunno.

- Binlor - I think we all discovered the power of knockback rather late in the beta, and I seem to remember it cropping up basicalyl any time anyone wanted to do physical damage, especially ever since the trisword got the nerf. I don't mind him being the "god of bigass damage", but prepping him + bear mace adds that bigass damage to just about anyone too easily IMO (which might be infringing on the appeal of other stuff). Because he's also the god of noclip, the god of pissorff spam, the god of magic resistance stacking and also a piety farm. So IDK.

- About the potion races I've put up a post to clarify what I mean (or at least what I'm pondering) in the halfling thread.

- For the goblins and prestige, the simple thing is that I'm not sure that a different scaling on levels past 10 would really mess balance up too much or at all, even in longer runs. Ppast lvl 10 you're only getting the benefits of a refill. At higher stats and with more spell/physical damage, yes, but it doesen't really compare. I'm not sure how it works currently, and I'm definitely not asking for more stats past lvl 10, but as opposed to anyone else the goblin stops getting one part of the benefits for his conversion (no more stats) AND he has a scaling cost of getting the other (a refill) whereas other guys don't (you hit the threshold, you get your stuff). Arguably, what you get becomes way more impactful. But so does anything the potion races get - except the potion guys can convert stuff at any point and always get the same benefit, while the goblin gets less benefit from dings when he can get a bunch, and significant benefits of a ding when he can get only one or maybe two. And even then a full health refill is a Bloodswel or 2 health potions (kinda) and a full mana refill is 2 glyphs off Conversion (which is also likely to get you 2 more mana potions), or a Crystal Ball charge or even barely a bit above a Clearance.

Now I've been doing sick stuff with goblins and all that, but either they have a systemic problem or the potion guys do, or the gods do. Or something.

-I'll do other stuff later.

[Darvin]

Dracul's preparation penalty should be changed
Reason: It's really over the top, simultaneously cutting piety availability (on a piety miser deity, no less) and reducing the effectiveness of his boons. If you're using him for lifesteal then you have a random chance of being screwed by having the boss be one of the bloodless monsters. For a preparation that ostensibly trades power for reliability, this is a real kiss of death (no pun intended). Moreover, he's a late-game deity who doesn't benefit from early-game worship so there's little benefit to having him appear near the dungeon entrance. Along with Tikki Tooki, Dracul's penalty is a real outlier for how steep the downside is. However, what makes his case egregious is that he actually undermines his own functionality as a deity in a way that no other prep penalty does.
Pros: it'd give a non-scummy way of using Dracul
Cons: do we want a non-scummy way of using Dracul?

[Lujo]

[secondserpentarius]

The Really Big Sword's Slow Strike is too punishing.
Reason: Perhaps this weapon was involved in some pre-beta madness, but as it stands, it's simply not worth the trouble of lugging this weapon around until you can get to Tower of Goo or equivalent enemy. I would suggest that on prep, this weapon starts on a nearby tile. That way, you can pick it up exactly when you need it. Alternatively, perhaps a less harsher drawback?
Pros: It would used more often.
Cons: It might end up being too cheap perhaps?

[Darvin]