Acceptability of Mods?

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Re: Acceptability of Mods?

Postby Darvin on Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:49 pm

dislekcia wrote:Do you have another 6 months of dev-budget lying around? Because that's what that would take...

Figured that'd be the response, but it was still worth suggesting. I realize this sort of thing could vary anywhere from trivial to borderline impossible based on design decisions you made long ago, and seeing as I've never laid eyes on Desktop Dungeon's source code I'm in no position to pass any judgement on where on the spectrum this lies.

That said, my comments on cheating still stand. Mods are the least of your worries there.
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Re: Acceptability of Mods?

Postby sitnaltax on Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:11 pm

It doesn't even take a map hack to gain knowledge of what the board will look like, of course; you can see what's where just by watching a video/looking at a screenshot/playing the map on a secondary account.

But that's fine. I'm not looking for fame here, I'm not going to try to go pro and get sponsored, and I don't suspect any of us are. If someone wants to cheat their way to to the top of the leaderboard a few times, we can probably just let it go. They'll be bored soon enough. If someone is obviously cheating and giving themselves scores a hundred times what's actually possible, well, those are easy ban targets without any fancy software required.
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Re: Acceptability of Mods?

Postby Sidestepper on Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:42 pm

I think that Berzee is coming from a very good place here. His first post was to ask for an official response on this sort of thing.

Personally, modding is something that I have wanted for DTD more than anything else. Mods can keep a game fresh and the community active years after the the game has been released. It's QCF's creative product, and they can do with it what they will, but I felt a real pang of chagrin when I saw that the official response was along the lines of "we are actively going to spend resources that we can't afford to make stuff like this impossible."
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Re: Acceptability of Mods?

Postby Lujo on Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:18 am

Meh, I've been in a bunch of modding communities, and commendably enough there's very few things I'd even think about modding in DD. Never much did get the point behind the clamor for it. Apart from one thing obv, but that wouldn't show on any leaderboards and someone will inevitably eventually mod/hack that.

Otherwise it's not really a game where I'd feel like going and making my life easier or even more varied by fiddling with stats on stuff. A win in a modded DD wouldn't feel right. I also have REALLY bad experiences with modders in general, because it usually takes a very flawed mindset to get into it enough to make proper changes, and so far my experience has been - "If there's a will to find a way to change something - it usually comes with enough of a lack of understanding of what can and what can't be tinkered with". I'm guessing it's because it's mostly done by programmers and not game designers, seen a lot of that sort of thing in the old Fallouts modding community. The last people on earth who should be anywhere near game design are usually the only people capable of modding. Eh.

I'd give a kidney for that one thing, though. But I'm a patient guy. Oddly enough.
Last edited by Lujo on Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Acceptability of Mods?

Postby dislekcia on Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:22 am

Sidestepper wrote:It's QCF's creative product, and they can do with it what they will, but I felt a real pang of chagrin when I saw that the official response was along the lines of "we are actively going to spend resources that we can't afford to make stuff like this impossible."


No, I think you misunderstood. I'm a tad annoyed that large amounts of effort that have gone into building things like leaderboards for the dailies recently is undermined by this sort of stuff, but that doesn't mean that we're actively going to spend more time dealing with memhacking. There have been crashes reported by the game from this sort of thing ever since it came out and we stopped using obfuscation, so it's not too big a deal.

I also think that the sort of modding you're expecting isn't going to be on the table: Changing values in memory isn't going to create new classes to play, nor can it do things like create infinite lockers (man that made me laugh). You'll see graphical overhauls maybe and some string name changes, coupled with maybe something that resets health, gives you gold or edits an enemy's stats.
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Re: Acceptability of Mods?

Postby Lujo on Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:34 am

dislekcia wrote:nor can it do things like create infinite lockers (man that made me laugh).


I'll take a proper hack that replaces an item in a locker slot with another item any day, though. Savegame editor, whathave you. Would also keep nice and quiet about it, it'd never show on any leaderboards and anyone would only know I have it by the fact that I'm actually playing the game again.
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Re: Acceptability of Mods?

Postby Sidestepper on Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:23 am

dislekcia wrote:
Sidestepper wrote:It's QCF's creative product, and they can do with it what they will, but I felt a real pang of chagrin when I saw that the official response was along the lines of "we are actively going to spend resources that we can't afford to make stuff like this impossible."


No, I think you misunderstood. I'm a tad annoyed that large amounts of effort that have gone into building things like leaderboards for the dailies recently is undermined by this sort of stuff, but that doesn't mean that we're actively going to spend more time dealing with memhacking. There have been crashes reported by the game from this sort of thing ever since it came out and we stopped using obfuscation, so it's not too big a deal.


I'm glad to hear that. I understand the frustration of working on a long term project, only for an outside influence to suddenly throw things off of balance. But, like both you Darvin have mentioned, exploits already exist and can't be reasonably defended against. For what it's worth, I'm looking forward to the dailies, I think it'll be a great feature. I just want modding too :)

I also think that the sort of modding you're expecting isn't going to be on the table: Changing values in memory isn't going to create new classes to play, nor can it do things like create infinite lockers (man that made me laugh). You'll see graphical overhauls maybe and some string name changes, coupled with maybe something that resets health, gives you gold or edits an enemy's stats.


Well, my expectations for modding are very modest. The things that Berzee can already do are huge in my book. The simple ability to swap piety costs around opens a lot of doors.

edit: A "Classic Mode" mod that sets monster stats to the old beta ones would be glorious, for example.

It might be best in the long term if we got an official response on whether modding will be embraced, or at least tolerated. Is it okay if berzee discusses his tools and methods? What if someone figures out how to make a savegame editor? (that's been an idle fantasy of mine for a while). I get it if you can't make a snap call about something like this, but maybe it would make good fodder for an upcoming dev blog post :)
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