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QCF Design Community • View topic - Did they nerf apothecary?


Did they nerf apothecary?

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Re: Did they nerf apothecary?

Postby Tinker on Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:33 am

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Re: Did they nerf apothecary?

Postby Astral on Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:34 pm

Sorry, but it can only be adressed in a textwall :(

No, the Orc Warlord of Binlor I referred to is completely corrosion free. If I wanted to suggest the corrosion based strat I would have mentioned the Martyr Wraps somewhere. And as you said it's better executed with Gnomes.

The Orc Warlord of Binlor strat works like this:

You either prep more attack boosters, bearmace, Elven Boots, more gold, extra potion shops, Whupaz, Schadenfruede, Reflex and Mana Potion with your choice of seal or you go Namtar's ward less glyphs and transmutation seal with mana potion changed to Quicksilver. The former is cheaper and more sinergistic with spellcasting gods and cares less about Taurog's mana reduction. The latter gives such a huge basedamage boost that even the worst of the worst RNG is unthreatening.

In the early game you just rack up piety with Binlor and scout the map. You need information about your bosses, altars, subdungeons and shops. Under no circumstance start converting anything yet, because it's a valuable source of piety or mana refill under MA. Also leave all the sparkles untouched.

If you get at least one glasscannon boss, you don't need to worry about strategy. We are preparing for the worst mathcups though. Like SMM + Frank, SMM + Goo, SMM + Tormented One.

Same goes for altar luck. Probably the worst is Drac + Pactmaker or Drac with very late JJ.

Let's say our weaker boss is Frank. He has ~800 HP, but to be on the sure side calculate with 900. After Whupaz we only need to deal 675 damage.

With attack boosters, knockback and might bonus (from wall breaks or mana potions) the attack multiplier reaches 1,3+0,5+0,75+0,3 = 2,85
Base damage can fluctuate between runs, but even with the worst CP fodders you'll make 640 CP, so 21 base damage. Keep in mind that the worse your CP fodders become the more likely you scored a synergistic item that makes you stronger than some basedamage.
Finally let's see how many hits we can take. With 16 max mana 2 Schadenfreudes and 4 mana potions (could be 5) you already mana spike for 16*3+6*4 = 72 mana. With the precast DP it's 8 free hits, and we brought a Reflex Potion too.

So far that's 2,85*21=59, and 59*9=531 damage, which is not enough. Using altars we can either pump basedamage or refill mana to make it higher. You only need 5 more base damage, Patcmaker's Spirit Pact, Sanguine and Lifesteal from Dracul will easily put you there.

Grabbing Taurog's Sword will give % damage too, and 1 lost mana is meaningless. You will have enough piety from Binlor to not care about spellcasting, just to mention you will be able to afford all items and 2 Unstoppable Furies. Conversion from Binlor gives 50 piety, his desecreation 30p + 3 indulgences, 60-70 piety from glyph conversions (with added Pisorf and possible Endiswall) and we haven't killed popcorn or picked up sparkles.

This is one of the main reasons why Binlor is so good, he is effectively 80 starting piety on any god + 3 indulgences. And obviously he let's you reach secret subs and get around monsters in claustrophobic maps.

I don't think I need to tell you how good EM or MA is with Warlords. They are guaranteed win with even lower damage too.

GG is fantastic too. He let's you ding and score the +5 basedamge with humility. Grabbing Enlightenment is doable beforehand too. Or if you're less comfortable just settle for protections.

TT is good for turning your useless health potions into 2 free attacks. You can either convert out or stay for more potions (but you'll need a piety buffer if you want to use DPs under him).

JJ's usefulness depends on when you find him. Mid-early worship is great, you have everything for peakabooing (this is why holding off conversions matters, too much damage would kill your targets), can grab instant petition and take mana boosts to strengthen potions and capitalize more on last chance. Unfortunately Chaos Avatar is forbidden, since it levels you up. Since JJ is a piety farm you don't have to stay with him, you can hop to your 3rd altar too still in exploration phase. Don't forget to convert items where it's more rewarding.
Late JJ may trap you, so you have to think about whether you want the mana boost or not. Last Chance is still good.
It can be a saving grace to have B2P. JJ's healthboost makes all other healthpotions heal 12+ mana :D

Back to where I said the min. basedamage is 21, the average is much higher. You will regularly cross 25, but 30+ is achievable too. For reference I did a quick run where my subs were useless (no gold or anything) and still ended up with 27 + a Schadenfreude.

And it's near impossible getting a shop selection with 0 good items.

Now onward to the other bosses. Goo? Binlor's wall form will let you decrease his resistance when using DP hits on him during exploration. If needed tap into Stone Heart as well. You can use your mana potions for further resist stripping.

Tormented One? This is ugly. You need to use Stone Heart quite a lot, since meleeing this boss will reduce the possible hits you can pull off. Spellcaster gods or GG are more important now. Thankfully he has reduced health. This is a matchup that makes you reconsider whether you buy a 2nd Shadenfreude or invest the gold differently.

And quite often you have everything that's needed to kill an SMM too.

In my experience so far, the only limiting factor for this strat is wall count. Funnily, every map where Binlor fails the MA Gnome Warlord with Bearmace and MW succeeds (that requires somewhat breezy maps to eliminate the chance of being boxed in and forced to kill 5 monsters).

Edit: LOL I can't count. But it turns out the strat is stronger than I originally thought. Oh and too many typos :P
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Re: Did they nerf apothecary?

Postby Tinker on Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:13 pm

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Re: Did they nerf apothecary?

Postby flap on Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:31 pm

Astral, this is some very good wiki material you just wrote.

Do we have a category for insane builds ? Or very specialised strategies like this (I don't know how to call all these very specific combos or strategies which really look improbable).
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Re: Did they nerf apothecary?

Postby Astral on Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:48 pm

@Tinker:
16 mana comes from Elven Boots, the 2 refills from a prepped and bought Schadenfreude, I wrote 3x mutiplier since the starting mana counts too.

The god hopping was included to show that you can further benefit from every god, so if you need more power do it.

It's true that assuming you hit the boss through walls constantly was generous, but with ~400 tiles of exploration you can afford to move the boss even with Pisorf to a wall-heavier area, and place a monster to the right location to capitalize on final knockback hits. Also Imawall/Weytwut makes all this easier.

I still think this strat gives you 100% chance to pull lvl1 bosskills. I never said it was easy though :)

Edit: I did not detail the NW version because it's even stronger, you have 50 more gold to buy stuff and way more CP so you need less hits in general. But it comes at the price of having to relocker NW each time. And in my opinion the Elven Boots version is more varied and fun.

@flap
I'm not sure if it belongs to the wiki. It may make the game look harder than it is, implying that you need to do convoluted strats like this.

Any opinions from others?
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Re: Did they nerf apothecary?

Postby Astral on Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:46 pm

Oh and here's a little something as an Easter Egg:

http://s27.postimg.org/9qwxo9svn/yessssssss11.png
http://s8.postimg.org/66dibjd45/yessssssss12.png
http://postimg.org/image/u8zw4b231/

It's a 'challenge' or more like a serious exercise in scumming, where you try to kill The Avatar at lvl1. Just getting to him takes a ridiculous amount of luck. And quite a lot of otherwise useful resources. And the fact that he's sitting in a sub kills most of the god combos.

So my point is, that if I could cause this much damage with suboptimal preps, horrible subdungeons and close to nothing basedamage, imagine what my described strat is capable of.

If you're wondering why did I name my screenshots like that, it's because it was mathematically possible to do the bosskill untill The Avatar trolled me with a badly placed minion. Never tried that 'challenge' again.
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Re: Did they nerf apothecary?

Postby flap on Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:17 pm

@flap
I'm not sure if it belongs to the wiki. It may make the game look harder than it is, implying that you need to do convoluted strats like this.

Any opinions from others?[/quote]

Sure, but there has been so much work/luck to discover some of them. It is cool to share them, so even those not following the forum will have a chance to try them. We might call them "improbable strategies"
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Re: Did they nerf apothecary?

Postby Tinker on Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:43 pm

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Re: Did they nerf apothecary?

Postby Astral on Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:44 pm

Thanks.

I did not kill any of the demonlords, they would have leveled me up. I used the mass09 ledger to put a monster on top of the sealed sub, revealed the tile with B2P and swapped place with him using Weytwut.

Scumming was needed to pull the B2P + Weytwut combo and getting a monster on top of the sub. Quite often you can waste all your gold and not get a monster teleport there. That time it took me 22 gold. Combined with useless subs (Glenrick and a lvl5 djinn) it was detrimental.

The gold loss made me have only 15 basedamage( less than 75% of minimum) , while MA's nerfed Refreshment (could not carry all my glyphs into the sub, had to convert them earlier - 33% increase in hit count) barely evened it out.

Since 1*0,75*4/3 = 1. So in conclusion I was playing a monotheistic Binlor worshipper who failed to remove any of the boss's resistance in advance. Plus had to waste mana on Endiswall once midbattle to get to the boss.

If there was a dungeon with a guaranteed main floor Avatar I could kill it every time at lvl1.
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Re: Did they nerf apothecary?

Postby Tinker on Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:20 pm

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