Right, so me and Darvin kinda agree that the Bear Mace would still be a kickass item with just +10% damage. I think it even used to be +10% but it got buffed to be more attractive. This now puts it in a spot where it's the item which adds the most +% damage, more than the elite Dwarven Gauntlets but can be prepped on any run on top of your inventory item. This is completely unnecessary.
The problem with knockback being unatractive or scary for newbies is that it's horribly unclear. To this day I don't know about how exactly it's damage formula works, whether for items, boons or Pissorff. This is what's keeping it obscure. Most other things, especially damage adding things are clear, knocback isn't. It's even hard to calculate because you have to hover over your damage to see you base and then see your total knockback and then do math, and for Pissorf it used to be 60% if you hit a monster into a wall and something if you hit a monster into a monster and it's a horrible mess in terms of presentation.
That's the only thing keeping people who aren't running around abusing it from running around abusing it. Everyone else who isn't running around abusing it isn't because it got boring after years of doing it. I don't even know the formulas, but here's what I do know about knocback, and why you could be cheezing it like mad as it kinda slipped testing because other stuff was just presented in a more straightforward manner (and was less complicated):
Regular knocback AFAIK:
- It pushes whatever you hit one square forward.
- If the target hits a wall, the wall is destroyed.
- If the target hits another target both targets are damaged, either for full knockback damage or some percentage of it, but that doesn't matter.
- God alone knows how it interacts with corrosion or resistances.
- If the target has blink it's kinda screwy:
- If the target hits a wall: no blink
- If the target doesn't hit anything (pushed into an empty square): no blink
- If the target hits another target: blink
- If the target hits an undistructable square, map edge, or another monster the target doesn't move
In short: You hit something, it tries to move forward, if it hits a wall or another monster they both get damaged.
Knockback damage & what it means:
- It adds a percentage of your base damage to your attack if you slam the target into something
- It lets you hit two guys with the same attack. Not for same damage, but that doesn't matter.
- You can slam monsters into each other. You don't have to slam them into walls.
- You can slam 2 bossess into one another.
- Every hit causes knockback damage, so if you use a reflex potion, the target is pushed twice so you deal it twice. This can get very stupid in terms of damage output.
- Knocking monsters into one another won't kill the other monster. So if you put a monster behind a boss, and just slam the boss into it, the other monster will be a permanent wall for pemanent guaranteed knockback on the boss.
- Knockback doesn't care about total damage, only base damage. So -% damage (like Mage Plate) doesn't reduce knockback damage or Pissorff DMG. It sure as hell confuses people.
Sources:
- The sources are Bear Mace, Binlor and Dragonkin CP.
- Most you can have on a non-dragon is 90% if you find another Bear Mace in the secret subdungeon. This means 1/4 of runs on any map with secret subdungeons.
- By prepping Binlor and the Mace you can have 65% Knockback on any run.
- The mace can be prepped on any run, as it's a blacksmith item so you can prep something else from the locker on top of it.
- The mace knockback damage is the biggest % based damage increase on an item in the entire game.
Racial Sinergy & Problem w Humans:
- Obvious sinergy with Orcs
- Prepping Binlor and a Bear mace is kinda like starting a run with a 650 CP Human ON TOP of whatever you get from your race and any other benefit you get from other Binlor boons and the general wall destruction and declogging utility. And the actual locker item.
- What's more, if you know what you're doing Binlor also adds another 300 Human CP worth of %based damage increase which also removes resists on every hit.
- This means that it would (maybe?) take a Human blowing all his Glyphs and then some to match just prepping the Mace and Binlor even if you go for a race which doesn't add any damage. I resent this a lot.
- With most classess giving +%dmg instead of +base dmg, Human becomes essentially a really niche guy. Outside of Transmuters (and maybe Monks or whatever), if you'd prep a Human, you're probably better off just prepping the Mace and Binlor for that run and play anything else, doesn't even have to be an Orc.
- The only exception is in VGT where Knockback doesn't work on the boss due to the final level layout, but I still fondly remember when the layout was different. I killed him with a Gorgon by knocking him into walls I made with Imawal repeatedly.
Thing to keep in mind:
Even if you would kill the monster with your knockback damage, it WILL hit you between your regular attack and the knockback even if you have first strike. The order is your hit - their hit unless first strike kills them - knockback.
Shennanigans:
- You hit both bossess with the same attack, doooh. If you can position them next to one another (Wonnafyt, Wheytwut, Pissorff, Melle Knockback), melle the one that does less damage to you, damage them both.
- This often turns one boss into completely effortless popcorn
- This also takes care of many bossess which would otherwise take effort to melee, as you don't even fight them
- Stack with reflex potions, slamming the boss into walls with a string of DP's or TT potions is the cornerstone of many lvl1 bosskills
- Pissorff is a glyph which does the same thing with a penalty to your damage. Still, you're damaging two bossess at the same time with a cheap, spammable glyph which scales with base damage instead of levels. Orc bloodmages are huge clowns who can efforlessly farm VT gold.
Utility shennanigans:
- A Knockback declogs passageways for no mana. Just try to not knock stuff down corridors, but diagonally into walls of said corridors if possible.
- You can destroy statues you make with Imawal for no mana and get gold.
- You can farm Binlor piety for no mana. Strong enough to get wormonger Gorgons through Grimms Grotto (if not even VT runs).
- Also keeps the 30% Might buff from Binlor's Stone Something boon up effortlessly if you keep slamming something into walls.
- Keep blinkers from blinking by slamming them into walls (even position them by pissorffing/knockbacking them into empty spaces towards a wall)
- Remove death protections 2X as fast from guys who have them.
- Slam monsters into a boss. Position a few of them next to a boss with knockback, heal up, and just start slaming them into it.
- Position a monster behind a boss, and just slam it into the monster. Perma knockback on boss.
- Slam an easy to melle guy (Say Meat Man) into a difficult to melle guy (Say a Naga) then First Strike/Firaball/Pissorff the other guy.
- God knows what else
"Crazy stuff":
- Lvl 1 bosskills. Just Dodgestep + a lot of knockback and base damage.
- JJ piety farming, apparently. If you knockback a monster right in front of you in the fog, you'll get piety for revealing it again. Exploity as hell.
- If you reduce your damage via Mage Plate or whatever other %based way (say Mage Plate + very early JJ desecration and several Taurog punishments however that works), this doesn't affect Knockback damage. Then just put a platemail on a Dragonkin and slam a low damage Meatman into a boss. Not sure to what extent this works, but people have been slapping plants into bossess to kill them.
- Abuse Pissorff spellcasters. Prep binlor as he gives a free Pissorff. Crystal ball effectively reduces your pissorff cost by one, and if you're slamming into walls so does Rock Heart (or at least it used to).
- Orc Bloodmages. Gety our health up at a very low level so that you can get a lot of B2P out of a full pool (not necessary, but why not, it's good). Line up bossess so you slam one into another, or a boss so that you slam him into a monster. Go nuts, convert anything that doesn't give more base damage unless you convert it or possibly upps your mana and keep a getindare around if you see one, just keep going. Ding on popcorn if necessary, once one boss croaks (getindare helps), finish off the other one easily. Farm any VT where you can reach bossess untill you have your entire kingdom upgraded.
- Orc Wizards, same thing pretty much, just takes a bit more effort.
(the list goes on, I'm just tired).
Bear mace ought to be 10%. you can find that thing in 1/4 of all secret subdungeons and prep it on any run, and knockback has both utility and power, it doesn't have to encroach on the human as much, or make the mace such a monster prep.
Knockback is complicated and worded in silly ways. There HAS to be something that can be done about it.
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IMPORTANT TIP for people complaining about bossess spawning in or near corners - this can occasionally happen. If you're relying on knockback, don't convert WONNAFYT, WHEYTWUT or PISSORF and see if you can position another monster so that you can slap the boss into it. It's worse than slapping two bossess into one another but you still get more damage on the boss that you would otherwise. One of these kinda always spawns.
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ALSO IMPORTANT - see how complicated it looks if you write it all (not even all) down? Looks lke it takes a lot of game knowledge to get use out of it? WRONG. You just hit sh**t and it dies faster than it would otherwise.
It works regardless of whether you have a clue about how well it's working. THATS why it's not been complained about, it's easy to not pay attention to or even calculate how much it's doing for you, or even realize that Binlor is in fact a god of huge damage, but you don't have to have a clue about half of this to kill stuff dead with it. People were picking the damned Binolr Boons up because they raise magic resists or remove walls (and because why not), and bringing the mace in because it helps farming binlor. It just takes you a while to realize where all the bigass damage is coming from.
I was overprepping Binlor just as a maphack. I actually wondered many times about why he was even in the western, fighter themed direction when he "doesn't add any damage", all the while having about a 1000 Human CP stapled onto whatever in a way which made it difficult to know what's going on. I'm not even kidding.