*SPOILERS* Dailies Thread

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Re: *SPOILERS* Dailies Thread

Postby shade_of_ox on Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:35 am

That's fair enough. I guess this design decision came from that the game is part roguelike (where deaths happen quickly and often), so they didn't want to handhold the player too much if that makes sense. It is definitely frustrating, though.
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Re: *SPOILERS* Dailies Thread

Postby srid on Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:13 pm

I must say that I almost never misclick now that I changed the attack button to be right click.
Plus the screen flashes red when you mouse over something that might kill you.

But I don't disagree that adding a panel that asks for confirmation when you click yourself to death could be a nice addition for such cases. Actually the game Dungeon Ascendance, which is a small mobile game inspired from DD does exactly that.


@shade_of_ox, I partly agree with you about streaks, but since the game keeps track of your highest streak there IS an incentive in the game to try getting the highest possible one.
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Re: *SPOILERS* Dailies Thread

Postby Xenagie on Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:43 am

srid wrote:I must say that I almost never misclick now that I changed the attack button to be right click.


Yeah, I normally don't have trouble with misclicks, but I got a new laptop Thursday, and I can't use the (now black) trackpad area with a laser mouse anymore, so I used a book instead. I shifted the mouse, which shifted the book on the mattress, which sort of pushed the button up into my finger. I'll spare you the full Errol Morris video reenactment, and just say that anybody outside of a bomb squad probably shouldn't have that kind of emotional reaction to a unexpected *Click*.

shade_of_ox wrote:Eh, I think the fault here is more in trying to get a high streak in a randomly generated puzzle (which will be unwinnable if you're unlucky). As I understand it the point of dailies is to compete against other players to see how well you can do in comparison, not to be able to consistently clear runs (after all, you can do that in the normal gameplay anyway).


See, I disagree. Yeah, there are random elements, but for the most part, I feel that win streaks are attainable -- the heuristic algorithms give you a surprising degree of lassitude -- have you read Danny Day's section in Procedural Generation in Game Design by Tanya Short? It's really interesting. Unwinnable maps are very very rare, and I don't believe we've seen one yet in the dailies. (Also you can prevent a lot the deaths that would be simply unlucky by checking the deaths and loadout of other players -- I know this is a little unfair to the players that play right when the game opens up, but if there are only 5 winners and you can see that all of them took the slayer wand, or the fireball magnet, it can really save long streaks.) I also feel there are a lot of novel strategies for consistent play -- conserving blackspace even when you don't know if you'll need it, taking a "unexpected" left heavy exploration path on high death maps, ignoring "good" moves because it's important to search for a better one, taking clearance and slaying items etc.

But really, I like the streak because it forces me to take even highly trivial maps seriously, and forces me took stick with maps I would normally scrap because I made too many mistakes -- which is strategically interesting in and of itself -- kind of like learning defensive play in chess. I like the feeling of feeling a lot of pressure to pull a victory out of my butt when I feel a situation is unwinnable. Tactics that seem too "nickel and dime" in a normal map might just save your streak, so I end up thinking things like "Can I use kitty corner movement to generate extra one spot blackspaces for my 11 M.P. Elf Taurog fighter to get off two fireballs instead of one or is traditional exploration going to leave more resources, weighed against the early conversion of the WONAFYT glyph?" I wouldn't think with that level of granularity in a normal map -- I'd get lazy and just think "screw it" and restart at the first setback until I win -- but knowing that a month long D.E.R.P. streak can be wiped away with a few bad choices keeps me pretty engaged. (Not to mention the huge dopamine hit I get when I survive after really expecting a loss, which is probably a huge reason why I love roguelikes in general.)

AvovA17 wrote:Oh man, that sucks big time. I remember I was pissed for more than a week when my previous streak of 72 ended due to a network glitch.

Thanks, man. You actually made me feel a lot better about it. That would be so frustrating with the network disconnect though. I saw a "network error" message once when I was uploading and the bottom dropped out of my stomach. Luckily, it reconnected a few minutes later.
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Re: *SPOILERS* Dailies Thread

Postby srid on Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:54 pm

Xenagie wrote:Unwinnable maps are very very rare, and I don't believe we've seen one yet in the dailies.


I totally agree with all that you said except for this part.
I was the only one to win a GoatPerson Labyrinth a few months back (it's in this thread), and I really had to use a spoiler to manage to beat it.

But I do agree with what you said about the thrill of having to win no matter what or lose your precious streak.
@shade_of_ox I have seen in your videos that like Choong's, you never gives up a run even when it looks desperate, so maybe you don't need that incentive yourself.
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Re: *SPOILERS* Dailies Thread

Postby The Avatar on Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:53 pm

srid wrote:
Xenagie wrote:Unwinnable maps are very very rare, and I don't believe we've seen one yet in the dailies.


I totally agree with all that you said except for this part.
I was the only one to win a GoatPerson Labyrinth a few months back (it's in this thread), and I really had to use a spoiler to manage to beat it.

But I do agree with what you said about the thrill of having to win no matter what or lose your precious streak.
@shade_of_ox I have seen in your videos that like Choong's, you never gives up a run even when it looks desperate, so maybe you don't need that incentive yourself.


If I might weigh in on the whole question of unwinnable runs, I think you two might be talking past each other due to differing definitions of unwinnable. As I see it, there are essentially two forms of unwinnability (he wrote, inventing a new word): First, there is literal unwinnability, which is to say that no sequence of moves executed can lead to success. To use the cliche illustration, although infinite monkeys with infinite time might write all of Shakespeare, they still won't be winning this run if it's *literally* unwinnable. To some extent, this is also what the devs tend to refer to when talking about winnable runs, as literal unwinnability is practically nonexistent in DD. Even if you generate a Goatperson running VGT with VT, almost every single generation of that will have quite a number of winning combinations of moves. Move to a less extreme combination, and every single generation will certainly have a massive number of winning combinations of moves. So, as Xenagie says, there aren't really unwinnable maps, and there certainly aren't within the selection of dungeons presented for the daily run. (Obviously, there are unwinnable maps on occasion. Getting a hard blocks of high level monsters in Grimm's Grotto for a class that has no exploration options and a set of preps that is similarly lacking could have 0 winning plays. Yet such a generation is so absurdly unlikely that you've got a better chance of getting a win playing blindfolded, and thus is definitely not any obstacle to streaking on dailies.)

However, there is also the second type, or practical unwinnability. This is the unwinnability referred to of the person who looks at the statement "A goatperson running VGT with VT always has a winning set of moves" and says "Ok, then win with that combination in a run where you don't luck into or scum for your ideal set up." After all, saying that the existence of winnable move combinations implies that a sufficiently skilled player should be able to always win makes the massive assumption that the player has perfect knowledge when weighing there decisions. After all, every single winning move combination for a truly horrific Labyrinth generation might involve going left from the start because going right wastes too much regen to overcome the blockages on the correct left hallway. Thus, that map would literally be extremely winnable, yet even the best of the best could not achieve more than a 50% win rate on it without foreknowledge. So, as Said says, (functionally) unwinnable maps like that Goatperson Labyrinth map are a real and arguably discouraging reality of pursuing daily streaks. Then again, if you are willing to spoil yourself you can significantly decrease the percentages of maps that fall in this category. Looking at what others prep will cut out a fair amount. With a posted map, you could eliminate this entirely.

In fact, given all of the above, I'll make the arguably bold that top tier players could easily pull off essentially indefinite streaks if a spoiled daily map was posted every day (and there weren't the realities of people not necessarily being able to play every day, server issues, etc). Given that literally impossible map layouts are incredibly rare, it wouldn't surprise me to see 4-digit streak lengths.
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Re: *SPOILERS* Dailies Thread

Postby AvovA17 on Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:17 pm

In fact, given all of the above, I'll make the arguably bold that top tier players could easily pull off essentially indefinite streaks if a spoiled daily map was posted every day (and there weren't the realities of people not necessarily being able to play every day, server issues, etc). Given that literally impossible map layouts are incredibly rare, it wouldn't surprise me to see 4-digit streak lengths.


Nah. Even a streak of 100+ is hard these days. I had two network disconnects last year. On game start the game disconnects, but the server shows you are still playing. The streak is gone. Same happened to other players.

~(^+^)~ told me these disconnects were not as common in the beginning.
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Re: *SPOILERS* Dailies Thread

Postby srid on Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:27 pm

I believe the actual record is more than 300 streak, so I agree that if you are ready to spoil yourself the maps that are practically unwinnable, it should be feasible to reach a 1000. Yet, we recently had a Grimm Grotto which would have been literally unwinnable without the Slayer Wand prep. Nothing says that a similar map without the Slayer Wand to save us all will not eventually come up.

There is also the fact that some players consider foreknowledge as cheating (which I totally respect) and will be really annoyed by getting an practically unwinnable map killing their streaks. They tend to be even more disappointed by the fact that this unwinnable map generally involves a GoatPerson and a Labyrinth, combination which could have been willingly excluded by the devs.

That being said, I don't play dailies much myself, I mostly try those with a high death rate when I have the time, and do chose to spoil myself with foreknowledge when no one has beaten them just to see if they are practically winnable or not. However if I did I think that my favourite metric would probably be the success rate over the longest streak. Arguably the longest streak is the longest sequence with 100% success rate, so it is correlated, except that the success rate does not count the days where you just can't play.

PS: I really doubt that all GoatPerson VGT + VT layouts are literally winnable. If that were true then the most lucky ones would have been enough for someone to pull it off, and we're far from it. Not even half of the classes have beaten VGT + VT so far, I believe.
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Re: *SPOILERS* Dailies Thread

Postby The Avatar on Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:32 am

AvovA17 wrote:
...
(and there weren't the realities of people not necessarily being able to play every day, server issues, etc)
...


Nah. Even a streak of 100+ is hard these days. I had two network disconnects last year. On game start the game disconnects, but the server shows you are still playing. The streak is gone. Same happened to other players.


Perhaps I'm missing something, but isn't this something I already said? It is true that server disconnects are a more common thing now, though, for whatever reason.

srid wrote:I believe the actual record is more than 300 streak, so I agree that if you are ready to spoil yourself the maps that are practically unwinnable, it should be feasible to reach a 1000. Yet, we recently had a Grimm Grotto which would have been literally unwinnable without the Slayer Wand prep. Nothing says that a similar map without the Slayer Wand to save us all will not eventually come up.

There is also the fact that some players consider foreknowledge as cheating (which I totally respect) and will be really annoyed by getting an practically unwinnable map killing their streaks. They tend to be even more disappointed by the fact that this unwinnable map generally involves a GoatPerson and a Labyrinth, combination which could have been willingly excluded by the devs.

That being said, I don't play dailies much myself, I mostly try those with a high death rate when I have the time, and do chose to spoil myself with foreknowledge when no one has beaten them just to see if they are practically winnable or not. However if I did I think that my favourite metric would probably be the success rate over the longest streak. Arguably the longest streak is the longest sequence with 100% success rate, so it is correlated, except that the success rate does not count the days where you just can't play.

PS: I really doubt that all GoatPerson VGT + VT layouts are literally winnable. If that were true then the most lucky ones would have been enough for someone to pull it off, and we're far from it. Not even half of the classes have beaten VGT + VT so far, I believe.


Again, I'm not saying you won't eventually inevitably lose a streak to a literally unwinnable dungeon. However, I am saying that the odds of getting one from the daily pool are so astronomically small that a 1000 streak is well within the realm of possibility. It wouldn't surprise me if a 10,000 streak were theoretically probable. As for the questions of cheating and fairness, I haven't and don't purport to say anything there. I merely say that the more normally ungiven information you consume, the thinner the divide between functionally unwinnable and literally unwinnable becomes. However, I will agree that you are more likely to be frustrated the larger your functionally unwinnable pool of runs is. That being said, I don't think I agree with "longest sequence with 100% success rate" being an indicative statistic. After all, it is easily abused by simply opting out any day which seems problematic (unless you can accrue enough foreknowledge to be certain of victory).

Also, while I cannot claim *all* Goatperson VGT+VT layouts are literally winnable, I would put forth that the majority of them are. After all, the amount of arbitrary decisions in even a regular dungeon is staggering. When you extend that to a dungeon as large as VGT, the ability to optimize every single arbitrary decision becomes an unthinkably large upside. You instantly explore to all the best targets, picking up all the key things along the way as efficiently as possible, cutting down on food issues and saving an absurd number of tiles. You know your god order, and thus can plan precisely how many boons to get from each god, when, and whether you should be saving piety from your current god for the next one (or whether you should push to level up to get a particular boon before you start tackling a new floor). There's also punishment order, item order, all your shops and their locations, and so much more to exploit. So, yes, not even a lucky run has won Goatperson VGT+VT, but there is an incredible gap between a lucky run and perfect information.
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Re: *SPOILERS* Dailies Thread

Postby William on Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:08 pm

It is interesting that Goatperson, and not Rat Monarch, is the benchmark for VGT + VT. ;)
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Re: *SPOILERS* Dailies Thread

Postby AvovA17 on Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:05 pm

The Avatar wrote:Perhaps I'm missing something, but isn't this something I already said? It is true that server disconnects are a more common thing now, though, for whatever reason.


No, you are not missing anything. I am sooo bright that I did not see it right in the part that I quoted :lol:
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