Petition: Please Boost Stone Sigil

[Tinker]

I propose a change to the Stone Sigil item: increase CP value from 30 to 65. In light of the 18 gold cost it would bring cp/gold ratio to 3.61, making the item very good CP fodder (though still worse than the top CP items). While it should hardly make the item unbalanced (basic cost and effect remains unaltered), it would hopefully be enough to have most players un-veto the item and re-start using it. (I'm not even dreaming of making it, i.e. 75 CP value, to bring it to the top of the CP/GP value curve...)

In case someone has an opinion, please share! If you agree, please just say so too.

[Lujo]

I'm having trouble interpreting or placing that item and talks and decisions that lead to it costing what it costs and having the CP it has. And whenever that's the case there's a chance there's a legit reason why something is the way it is. A chance, not certainty. People who made it that way did that for a reason, and if I don't know what the reason was, I'm not sure what they'll think is being asked for.

So I don't know. If I were the modding sort, I'd privatly play with it's price and it's CP and see what it does for me, I'm more curious about why it is the way it is than doing anything to it.

[fall_ark]

Wasn't the SS first made when Vampire can still worship Pactmaker?

[Tinker]

[Astral]

I'd love it if its CP value was increased, or if it became a stronger item, with maybe +2 piety/kill as an effect?
Or how about cutting it's price in half? So it became a religious equivalent of Blue Bead?

While there are cases where AC does nothing extra for you, very rarely it happens, but in those cases you can still convert it for a decent 50 CP, or not buy it if it's not a prep.
More frequently it allows you to gain benefit out of at least one altar you would have never desecrated otherwise, gives the piety instantly in a big chunk so you can turn it into boons, and the extra indulgences are worth piety too.

[Lujo]

Well, I agree with your reasoning Tinker. What fall_ark said is what I'm curious about past that point - the 18 gold price, regardless of the ratio, indicates to me an item which requires a significant investment and promises a significant payoff. Stone Sigil doesn't do that, and wouldn't do that even if it gave you 100 CP.

A single altar desecration costs no gold, gives 30 piety and 3 indulgences with no hassle if that's all you need. I don't have the SS vetod (I got nothing veto'd), and I occasionally pick it up if my gameplan works with Miser anyway, but there's just so little chance that spending 18 gold on it and not on just about anything else will make your life easier.

Back when Vampire had a way to spend piety on anything but Brandon, it was an engine, and the vamp would pay through it's nose for it. It still messess directly with the piety costs on many pacts - but Pactmaker can't really be prepped, and you're not likely to prep the sigil just in case you run into it (and Consensus was nerfed from what it used to be). I pick it up on anyone Preping Drac, just because I feel bad for it and it at least looks like when I'm supposed to pick it up.

However, it just compares badly to buying a Schadenfraude, CB for just one hit, or anything else that's not CP fodder. The opportunity cost of putting 18 gold into it feels too high. I'd put 18 gold into a Balanced Dagger, I'd put in 25, but in this game, an item which solves the map for you costs 12-15 gold, and this thing costs 18. It could be a nice "last ditch" purchase that would get me out of many unforseen sticky situations - except by that point I've allready invested my gold into other stuff hoping I wouldn't be in that situation.

I'd keep the CP EDIT: but knock the price down to at least 15, or even lower it, but put the price in the Bloody Sigil or Blue Bead range, tbh. Or at least try it that way, see what happens.

EDIT2: How much piety can you even get out of it? What's that worth, what possible situation could you be in where that's a better investment for 18 gold than too many other things?

[Tinker]

Well, I specifially don't want to compare SS to AC beyond noting what I did 3 posts above... I think AC is not so much about gaining Piety but about tweaking an already existing Piety mechanic (desecration). Anyway, my reasoning is also based on how I think of the Wards or Troll Heart etc. I like to find these items also late game, because then they earn CP. So I like to see them even when there's not any immediate benefit; and if there is a foreseen beenfit (i.e. early Troll Heart), all the better.

Anyway, I'm also curious if there are other opinons? Other players? Vets? Devs? I don't know if it's even realistic to lobby for such a tweak, but I'd at least like a good discussion out of the topic!

[caviar]

Most normal/hard dungeons house 38 monsters excluding bosses and subdungeons (courtesy of some quick empirical research, it's at least in the ballpark). Realistically, you're not going to kill much more than 30 of those before taking down the boss(es), even less in a vicious scenario. That's 30 piety sprinkled across the run and 30 CP for 18 gold. Looking at the collar with its 50 on-demand piety (excluding conjunction/crusader/pactmaker scenarios), 5 indulgences and 50 CP for 25 gold, the latter one comes off as a much more attractive choice to me. And that's me being generous towards the sigil; the 30 piety even assumes that you find it right at the start of the run.

That's not to say the sigil is without its uses. It can be nice in combination with a lategame Dracul conversion and subsequent popcorn mop-up, for example, and it's always a nice boost for the goatperson, who appreciates the extra piety padding since he/she can't desecrate in the first place. The problem, as has already been mentioned, is that there most often are better ways to spend that 18 gold. I don't think it'd be worth upsetting the delicate overall item balance by changing its effect, but would cutting its price a bit really be the end of the world? Maybe 15 gold to put it at 2:1 CP fodder value, or even a little lower than that.

[Tinker]

I wouldn't touch the effect. I would boost cp:gp to 3+ as is the norm for items with next to no late game use. Whether you do it by cutting the price in half or doubling the CP is mostly a cosmetic thing, but I would prefer to go the CP route to make sure the Price:Effect ratio remains unaltered.

[Lujo]

Woot! Trumpets and jubilations! Both the Sigil and the Dagger finally got tweaked. Oh, happy day!