Races wiki page

[Lujo]

I think you have a different concept of early and late, that's confusing.

Orc's = to what I said,
Elf's = to what I said (except I might point out that you don't have to rush convert just because you benefit from early conversion often),

Dwarf =/= what I said depending on what you think of as late or early. 4-5's mid game, and you most certainly don't want to convert early. lvl 3 conversion takes 3 glyphs to get less than a health pendant, that's terrible. lvl 4 takes 5 conversions for 20 HP. Also terrible, that's all your glyphs. Lvl 5 - go nuts. Before that, no, absolutely not unless highly situational - nothing will happen if you convert something, but converting with the aim to cash in isn't what you're really looking for. You'd have to explore to find so much stuff and then get a semi-meaningless bonus compared to the effort. I don't even want to discuss this, I'll fall into a trap of thinking that if I explain it detailed enough you'll understand, and you won't, I'd be textwalling again and get in trouble for even attempting it. And if I have to say this again I'll get in trouble for not being "nice" to someone else on the internet. So I can't prevent you from doing what you want with it without getting into trouble, so either just back off or wipe it all off. It took ages to convince you goblins made any sense at all, you're the specific reason I didn't post about the update in the first place, and you're so prone to looking at things from your own perspective that it's almost impossible to convince you that someone else doesn't. And it's bloody me telling you that, of all people.

Human: Human takes 200 CP for +1 per level. The rate makes it not worth the rush most of the time, lvl 5's ok, before that it's situational at best. You can do it or not do it, the point is that you don't have to. And it's an important point because humans are the starting race and you very much don't want newbies converting glyphs by default before they get to use them and learn about them, that messess up the learning curve. Especially if you don't have to. Many "how do I even beat a single map" desperate newbie posts boil down to them rushing conversion, you get them to use the glyphs instead and figure them out - it sorts itself out. There are very good reasons I lined it up the way I did, for the love of jesus don't make me regret actually putting something on the wiki finally.

Gnome: same as what I said.

Halfling: same as what I said - you can hold off or not, it's all about what you want to do. And you don't need specific builds, because there's a load of ways to boost the effects of your hit compared to boosting the effect of the fireball (popping a potion for a fireball compared to popping one for a fine sword + knockback + might from boon? Big difference, and that's not even getting into actual builds)

Goblin: timing varies, same as what I said.

Anyway, those are general guidelines, not somethign you have to stick to like the world will end if you don't. I went and also wrote that.

[Tinker]

[Lujo]

I'm not discussing this with you. It had to be simple, broad and general, and details and finesse ought to be on the each individual race page. There is 0 chance I don't get misinterpreted by dislekcia if I discuss this, I know from experience, and convicing or not convincing you isn't worth a ban. For you just pushing your point and technically being a troll won't have any concequences, for me doing anything most certainly will. If you want the wiki to reflect your view - go right ahead, but know that it won't be due to a consensus, but mostly due to strict moderature preventing adequate response. And that's that.

[berpdreyfuss]

[Lujo]

I know what it sounds like, but the learning curve is very steep (or rather, no so much steep as... broad), and the perspective difference can be huge - any noob can walk in and write what they think because something a vet said doesn't make sense to them. Trying to explain it often takes trying to put a ton of experience into words, and that makes stuff unreadable. And the game being "about enlightening moments and rewarding discovery" can blow your ego up to insane proportions for all your "accomplishments" while at the same time you'll walk up to a bunch of veterans and spam arrogant smileys daring them to convince you that goblins make any sense. When you combine that with the moderature policy, what you get is that it's impossible to discuss stuff with folks who have reasons to believe they're well informed and understand everything well enough (figuring out basic things made them feel like geniuses), while not being nearly as enlightened as they think (because you don't know what you don't know, and if you feel like a genious for everything you do it's even less likely you'll doubt yourself).

It's a problem, I don't like it, but that's how it is. What I wrote up there can be a cornerstone to a race and class wiki that makes folks play everything and not compare stuff in unhelpful ways which would get rid of a lot of issuess we've had so far with personal opinion permeating advice causing folks to be dissatisfied with a lot of features. Or it can be whatever Tinker thinks it should be, but I don't want no part in that. We had that before with Darvin, unintentionally, simply because most of the rest of us never felt like we understand things well enough and he ended up basically having to do it all by himself. Which is also why random noobs can think they understand a ton, as not much collective experience by the vets was ever written on the wiki at all. And they can improve the wiki, not because they know or understand a great deal, but because a million things were never written on it. And then they feel even smarter because they feel like they discovered something that wasn't widely known, except it's often possible that your average vet knows quite a bit more abot it but never wrote it down (in the wiki). It wasn't so much the wiki as much as Darvin's blog, by no fault of Darvins - he wasn't happy with it either.

Main impetus for even editing it for me is that I see random newbies writing stuff on it all the time and go "oh, crap, we really should've got around to writing this stuff down on time, look what's happening now!". Sometimes it's fine, enough time it isn't. For example Halfling Berserkers - dug up a ton of folks using them all the time before, it's even on the first page of the brag thread, the reason they weren't top billing on the wiki was because Darvin wrote the wiki and nobody who knew how great they are edited the wiki. But find a random noob with a bit of an ego convinced it's sacrelige and you can have a forum war simply trying to explain it to someone who you can't explain it to and can only grudgingly accept it for consensus purposes. Etc. Etc.

[dislekcia]

There's nothing wrong with newbies writing stuff on the wiki. All that means is that the current content there doesn't speak to their experience, so a good wiki edit would be to change what's already there to also speak to the experience that newbies feel is missing: "When you start playing, often you'll notice that converting everything early gives you strong bonuses and that's true, but at the cost of flexibility that glyphs give you in individual combats. Blah blah different races gain bonuses at different times, blah blah..."

This is why wikis are team efforts. If one person's text is too long or not focused enough on a single topic, find someone that can explain it better, with less rambling. Nobody owns a wiki, so trying to be the one true source of knowledge is a waste of everyone's time.

[Lujo]

Yep, that's the intenton - nothing wrong with newbies editing the wiki, it's loaded with flat out holes because we never wrote stuff on it, semi-biased stuff (ask Darvin about potions) and, hey, folks discover stuff all the time... And I really gotta completely reweite the TT page, lol (that one's my blunder from a full-analytical phase). It just goes to thier heads too easily, makes it hard to convince them there's more to stuff than they think or that they're putting too much personal prefference into it. Anywho, i'll preface the list with something like that, try to make it even more noob friendly, that was the whole point.

And I wasn't trying to be the only source of knowlege, I did discuss it via PM's. But I didn't want to turn it into another "Tinker's making faces at people because she doesn't agree with/understand something" and politely informing us that there's likely going to be a wiki war if she doesn't get what she wants like's been the case several times by now. I hope that's that, honestly. My "wipe it all off" was a conscious and deliberate statement that, no, I don't want to have a wiki war with anyone, but if someone's gonna be like that I don't want to contribute to the wiki at all, go write all the stuff yourself, ty. Getting the halfling berserker up there was difficult enough for my taste.

[Tinker]

[dislekcia]

[Lynzkar]

Ya'll better get along now!
That was a joke, but seriously tho, don't start thread wars, just be nice, please, thank you.