New broken strategy

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Re: New broken strategy

Postby Tinker on Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:40 pm

Lujo wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R92GgP2HvPg

That's a nice vid to illustrate how PISORF can be chained real effectively! Recommended to watch, though the narrator does go into some conclusions that feel a bit far-fetched to me... :)

Bit OT, feel free to ignore:
Spoiler: show
Not to prove anything or whatever, but I did a testrun of the same build, same preps (except altar), spamming fireballs. Tried to keep similar bosskill levels, not rely on anything in store/on ground, not rely on Earthmother as that would be too easy, etc., to keep it "clean". Not that it would be conclusive of anything, but I razed Cursed Oasis without blinking, despite 1) you're being right that both bosses are much easier to beat with PISORF than with BURNDAYRAZ, and 2) skill advantage probably vastly going in your favor. ( Though it's also possible that 3) I may be smarter, but I'm not pushing that point, it wouldn't go far... :) ).

Image

The point is: a very experienced player, who is especially very good with a certain strat, making quick work of a map that folds easily specifically to that strat, using a prep set that looks casual but is actually quite strong, does not make that strat broken. Compare: a less experienced player, taking a strat that is especially very bad for that map, wins similarly.

That said, I do think that it's very educational to learn how to chain PISORF effectively to bypass some monster traits and set-up cascading kills, because it's one additional tool in the player's repertoire, one that is solid enough that with the right strategy it can "solve" most maps. I think that the wiki could say more about this, because it's not likely to be changed after so long, though ideally it should try to stay as objective as possible, and encourage readers to immerse themselves in a multitude of possible approaches.


While at the same time alternatives to these power builds are plentiful and often just as strong or completelly different with their own pros and cons. There's still a lot to "solve" and standardize (publicaly), let alone really break, and the way things look it'll take quite a while.

I do think that PQI is doing a decent job of moving people out of their comfort zones, at least as far as the builds themselves go. So all there's left is to use the opportunity to try new stuff (or just go in purist or low-prep, and see what the map has, and go with that instead of trying to go for a prep-screen victory).

eastless wrote:Tryed to using Fire Heart but always missing the moment it fills to 100%, also I'm too greedy for gold on Crystal Ball charges... And both of them have 1 CP, so screw it.

Well. CP can range from 1 to 50 depending on the number of charges. Fire Heart at 100% or Crystal Ball at 10+ charges will convert for 50 cps. So you can actually 1) buy Crystal Ball; 2) use it a couple of times; 3) when you no longer have the money, charge it up to 10+ charges and convert it for a decent 50 CPs.
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Re: New broken strategy

Postby eastless on Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:46 pm

Go beat Vicious Steel with Purist Elf Monk, Tinker! :lol:
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Re: New broken strategy

Postby Tinker on Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:53 pm

eastless wrote:Go beat Vicious Steel with Purist Elf Monk, Tinker! :lol:

No! :lol:

(gotta leave some sense of achievement for you "youngsters", right? j/k)

(P.S. I don't like highly scummy runs; I hate scumming. Purist is mostly difficult because you rely on the RNG to provide you with what you want. Logical solution is scumming, but I only ever did that for 2 VGT badges, and I'd like to keep it at that.)
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Re: New broken strategy

Postby lordatog on Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:25 pm

Worst PQI I've ever seen was Elf Monk Warmonger on Cursed Oasis. How would you go about that one?
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Re: New broken strategy

Postby eastless on Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:51 pm

Tinker wrote:
eastless wrote:Go beat Vicious Steel with Purist Elf Monk, Tinker! :lol:

No! :lol:

(gotta leave some sense of achievement for you "youngsters", right? j/k)

(P.S. I don't like highly scummy runs; I hate scumming. Purist is mostly difficult because you rely on the RNG to provide you with what you want. Logical solution is scumming, but I only ever did that for 2 VGT badges, and I'd like to keep it at that.)

Translate: "I'm too old for this." :D


lordatog wrote:Worst PQI I've ever seen was Elf Monk Warmonger on Cursed Oasis. How would you go about that one?

Obviously, base damage stacking + corrosion. Prep Taurog and Martyr Wraps + Elite items and translocate for Yendor, or just Yendor and Quest items for Martyr, I guess, heavily punching Bandit's faces... Convert to EM at some point to clean some curses/spam additional corrosion if needed. Need to take a few attempts to realize what else.
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Re: New broken strategy

Postby Darvin on Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:07 pm

lordatog wrote:Worst PQI I've ever seen was Elf Monk Warmonger on Cursed Oasis. How would you go about that one?

Martyr Wraps and Bear Mace. Favorable deity/shop loadout would also help a lot. Still not attempting this one any time soon. Unlike my colleague above, I wouldn't prep Taurog. Much as his skullpicker would be missed, his resist items are unhelpful with all the curse being thrown around and I'd rather go with 4 altar to maximize the chance of a good conversion combo leading into Dracul or Tikki Tooki.
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Re: New broken strategy

Postby eastless on Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:16 pm

Darvin, but it's Warmonger, and Taurog offers maximum piety for glyph's converting. Sure prep Bear Mace in order to get access to secret sub, and Dracul will be perfect late game conversion with piety farmed under Taurog, resist items are near useless but Skullpicker is invaluable. But what Tikki can offer to monk? Potions spike you mean? :) I guess Dracul will be much more useful.
Taurog is the only deity to start Warmonger in my opinion, Dracul is a late game deity, GG won't offer any help here, all others are not in the business.
And the question is, will corrosion stacks from Martyr on level up be adding to monsters in cursed realm? Shade boss will be huge problem. :)
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Re: New broken strategy

Postby Lujo on Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:54 pm

eastless wrote:But what Tikki can offer to monk?


(Chuckles and looks knowingly at Darvin, and nods slowly). Although Curse might be a bit of a pain in the nethers. EDIT: Also haven't been much up to speed with it since the big rework, but I do remember someone assuring me it still kicks ass.

eastless wrote:Taurog is the only deity to start Warmonger in my opinion, Dracul is a late game deity, GG won't offer any help here, all others are not in the business.


I'm willing to bet that a Goblin Thief can Warmonger any regular vicious dungeon (seeing how he lolstomped a bunch for me allready). Sure as hell doesn't start in Taurog. So can various Drac Dwarves. GG Warmongers are also scary shit, but folks swear them a bit too much as the "only sensible warmonger choice" - thought I do understand why. Binlor Warmongers are kinda underrated simply because Halflings don't get that much play (and I suppose Half-Dragon just gets saddled with Taurog all the time, but the Halfling Binlor Berserker did VT's without prepping an item all over the place). There's also Warmongering with an EM start, plenty of fun too if a bit tricky. Tikki's probably the only guy I wouldn't consider prepping on a warmonger myself (unless it involves transmuting Fabulous Treasure, in which case it can do lvl1 boss kills XD). Taurog being the only choice is a common misconception, I thought so too until a little briefing with Blovski and Sidestepper cleared me up on that a few years back.

eastless wrote:can't believe spellcaster can beat VT NC, I also have vetoed Fire Heart and Crystal Ball (such a shame :lol: ), because it's just blows my mind, adding these variables to whole hp/mp/xp/dmg/gold/CP/piety/blackspace/popcorn equation.


Short: Oh they can, the fireball guy kinda needs to veto stuff and you need to know your moves, but various pissorf guys can stomp it. Crystal Ball doesn't add variables to equations, it removes a need for equations.

Long:
Spoiler: show
Back in the day you could buy as many purple potions as there were alchemy shops on the map - it was all kinds of stupid so it was nerfed. CB is pretty much exactly that, except your "extra purple potions" are generally cheaper than actual purple potions. It's exactly strictly superior to something which got nerfed out of the game for being retarded. in theory you can't get too many full mana refills, in practice you can, and either way - how many full mana refills does anyone need?


Tinker wrote:
Lujo wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R92GgP2HvPg

That's a nice vid to illustrate how PISORF can be chained real effectively! Recommended to watch, though the narrator does go into some conclusions that feel a bit far-fetched to me... :)


:lol:

Short: It's a TERRIBLE video of how Pissorf can be chained effectively.

Long:
Spoiler: show
For one thing the map itself is bad for it because you can't hit one boss into another one, so if the glpyh didn't have nonsense non-interaction with resists and blink it would be the worst Pissorf map in the game. And if I went and listed the ammount of completely stupid moves, non-moves, auto-sabotage moves and nonsense in the exectuion of that vid the list would be long as my arm. That vid is an example of how someone who barely knows how to play at all can still beat CO with Pissorf easily. A list of reasons why CO should be a rather bad Pissorf dungeon is not as long but would also ba an interesting read because it's a good illustration of how the damned thing erases stuff that's supposed to be a challenge.

Skills and smarts, meh, you're plenty skilled, and you're plenty smart, it's a perspective thing that hasn't got anything to do with either of those. I can see your point of view, but you can't see mine, and you becoming capable/willing to accept what I'm saying doesn't have anything to do with you getting any better or smarter, just time. Or you might stick to your oppinion, but that would be a shame in my opinoion, as you're more intelligent than that. Just immagine if you now went to try to explain to Eastless just how wrong he is about his "what god is essential for warmongering" and he for some reason decided it's a matter of pride and life and death to not give up on the stance whatever you told him. And then decided to go edit the wiki page on Warmonger strategies to be more in line with that stance and kept it up so firmly for so long everyone just gave up bothering to the point that he ended being wiki editor. Not saying he would do that, but immagine youself in that situation, except this time on the other end of the discussion. What could possibly get the other person to see sense? Only time - either they get bored and go do something else eventually, or they play long enough to realize why their oppinion might not have been justified.

I do appreciate the more diplomatic talk, and yes, since it's not likely to be changed, it should be detailed out, and if I wanted to go "ZOMG IT?S BROKENZOR" I could've done it many times. The problem is that it's truly gamebreakingly broken and I didn't even want to put it up there as an option because of that. For me it's quite an ethical conundrum - be honest about it and spell it out to anyone who looks, or be dishonest about it and bury it somewhere and make the wiki look strange to anyone who stops and seriously considers that thing for a bit? The first approach devalues the game, the second approach devalues the credibility of the rest of the wiki.

Both approaches have their merits, though - if it's publically available and people are instructed to get good at it asap, they can unlock all the stuff there is to unlock have more things to play with / a very brain-unintensive way of farming gold etc. Game's got a cheatcode, but wth, people aren't as frustrated. I suspect that's the reason the Crystal Ball is the way it is, the devs have originally had more of that kind of thing around the place (but we occasionally complained and most of them got tweaked out*) If it isn't publicaly made a "here's how you unlock everything and get most of your full rainbows, have fun, then learn the actual game", then it's possible to keep people in a pink-glassess illusion that they're playing an actually superbly balanced game and marvel at it even though stuff is out of their reach, and lets people in the know dazzle poor uninformed sods with feats of "genious" (not big on that, but some folks are). It's a conundrum.

(*The Assassin for example, didn't, and was almost always left out of balancing discussions for the obvious reason that it wasn't mean to be balanced by anything whatsoever. He did get the damage penalty at one point but that was more of a "lets give him some sort of downside for appearances sake" IMO. Yendor was also never brought up AFAIK for the same reasons. If you haven't been around to see what sort of thing got buffed and what got nerfed and are not fond of using either, consider that your perspective on this sort of thing might be lacking what takes to be able to have a relevant opinion. I'm not sure that's the actual case with the pissof glyph, though. Looks like there's genuine screwups with it's interactions with stuff, this sort of thing is generally more obvious and the glyph breaks a bunch of rules other stuff conforms to.).
Last edited by Lujo on Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New broken strategy

Postby Nurator on Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:19 am

Eastless, to not get left out:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3161&hilit=punchbag&start=10

Thats wat TT can do for a monk ;-)
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Re: New broken strategy

Postby Lujo on Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:31 am

^ If you're not up for shennanigans you can also, you know, just get a bunch of poison on a monk and swap out. Even if you only ever use it to refill your mana it's still worth it :lol:

I think I'd go with JJ for that particular run. Martyr Wraps, 2 STR potions (alchemist), for sure, bear mace for piety and general knocback nonsense. Finding a Viper Ward would be handy.

GG with Martyr Wraps is also something to consider, he's got cleansings for the thralls, protections for general healing, and a full curse wipe with enlightment if it would mean anything. And some early health for leveling. You can probably dump your mana potions right away.
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