New broken strategy

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Re: New broken strategy

Postby William on Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:58 am

Nurator wrote:Eastless, to not get left out:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3161&hilit=punchbag&start=10

Thats wat TT can do for a monk ;-)

That cheered me up after how poorly I did in today's daily. :lol:
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Re: New broken strategy

Postby Tinker on Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:50 pm

Lujo wrote:For one thing the map itself is bad for it because you can't hit one boss into another one, so if the glpyh didn't have nonsense non-interaction with resists and blink it would be the worst Pissorf map in the game.

Luckily, you can just ignore the Shade altogether, and set up the chain only in the normal realm. It's a really awesome map for PISORF, one of the few where my default tactic is spamming PISORF (I'm normally spamming BURNDAYRAZ, I like its color much better :P ). Anyway...

Spoiler: show
I can see your point of view, but you can't see mine, and you becoming capable/willing to accept what I'm saying doesn't have anything to do with you getting any better or smarter, just time.

Actually, I think I can see your point of view quite well; I just draw different conclusions from the facts. I can totally understand why someone would consider PISORF to be broken; as you said it already, it can bypass several monster traits (blink, resistances, retaliate, etc.). That said, every trait/class/race/build/etc. is pretty much about bypassing some aspect of the game. You could argue that Assassin is broken because it completely bypasses the damage and most of the traits on the majority of monsters on the map; you could argue that the Gorgon is broken because it can completely bypass monster resistances and to a degree even regeneration and death protections; you could argue that Rat Monarch is broken because you can go in naked into a map, and have a reasonable chance to bypass pretty much the whole map; that the Crusader is broken because it bypasses most of the debilitative effects; etc., etc. A lot of boons, traits, abilities, items are specifically about what they bypass (that you would normally have to work around the hard way). Come to think of it, BURNDAYRAZ starts out as your "bypass enemy damage" glyph, and it's the most basic thing in the game!

In my personal opinion, PISORF - though it bypasses a lot of monster traits, and it often makes otherwise difficult situations very easy - is not broken any more than a lot of traits/glyphs/etc. already are. That said, I can totally understand if someone thinks it's "over the top", even though I don't think so myself. ;)
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Re: New broken strategy

Postby eastless on Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:06 pm

If I got Tinker's point right, it's what I was thinking about listening Lujo's speechmaking about 'broken' PISORF - it's just another strat, approach, from bunch of other stuff, and yeah well okay, you found it, showing how to abusing it, okay, you are smart and so on. :) But why it's 'broken' and another stuff is not? It's just one of the edges. I guess it supposed to be that way. By devs. So there is nothing to be fixed.
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Re: New broken strategy

Postby eastless on Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:16 pm

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Any ideas? :)
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Re: New broken strategy

Postby Lujo on Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:49 pm

Tinker wrote:
Lujo wrote:For one thing the map itself is bad for it because you can't hit one boss into another one, so if the glpyh didn't have nonsense non-interaction with resists and blink it would be the worst Pissorf map in the game.

Luckily, you can just ignore the Shade altogether, and set up the chain only in the normal realm. It's a really awesome map for PISORF, one of the few where my default tactic is spamming PISORF (I'm normally spamming BURNDAYRAZ, I like its color much better :P ). Anyway...


Everyone who wants to run through it fast ought to be spamming pissorff with anything in CO, and killing the Shade right now is just a matter of being able to cash in on the silly interaction to bag a lvl 10 for no real effort. But if you look at the wiki on the place, it makes Pissorf look like something you could try if "feel like it" which on that map - it simply isn't. It's not an optional thing, it's a veritable cheatcode for that place, everything else is "if you feel like it".

Yes, Pissorf can let you bypass the shade (and knockback at lvl1 is the only way I can think off which can let you completely miss the fact that there IS a curse relm at all), and this would be reason enough for Pissorf to be good on that map. However, the one thing you'd prep to 100% certainly not have to deal with the shade is at the same time the thing you can kill the lvl 10 shade with at lvl 1.

The MAP, however, ISN''T good for demonstrating what Pissorff does in general, because having the bossess be physically disconected ISN'T good for showing the power of Pissorf as a legit strat, other than evading monster abilities. Because if someone took it as a model of how and when you use it they'd go into another place and kill bossess peicemeal instead of lining bossess up against one another and knocking them into one another. Also, if killing the Wraith wasn't trivial with Pissorf, and if blink couldn't be avoided, the map would be a worse Pissorff map because Pissorfing is a ding stat and that map challenges ding strats. If the dragon reacted to knockback the way it reacts to any other interaction, you would get cursed every time you use Pissorf and dealing with the Wraith would be unavoidable (and the Wraith wouldn't just roll over and die). And there would also be a lot of Wraiths around which you can't use as part of a Pissorf scheme.

So if Pissorf worked in a way which doesn't obviously let you ignore monster abilities to the extent which would not have survived testing if it was spotted and fully explored you wouldn't be lookign to use Pissorf there. And it wouldn't survive testing because everyone using something to completely bypass challenges with any character, especially to that extent i.e. making a map wholly trivial, is what ussually got things reworked/nerfed. Everybody would be spamming it like mad and the devs would maybe even "temporarily" nerf it (like what happened to the Orc conversion bonus), because feedback on anything else would be impossible to find as everyone would be spamming Pissorff wins incessantly and the forum would have been flooded with them (no joke, the Orc thing actually happened). Things got nerfed for way less.

As for CO in particular, that glyph makes that dungeon just not function. It does this for a bunch of other dungeons, but that dungeon is all in it's boss abilities and the curse world. Pissorf would make evading the curse world trivial, except it also makes dealing with the perma-exit from the curse world trivial effectively obsoletion itself. It's the singularity of stupidity and a fun thing to obsever: you could technically argue that pissorf is over the top because it makes pissorff look bad.

Spoiler: show
Tinker wrote:Actually, I think I can see your point of view quite well; I just draw different conclusions from the facts.


And I know you can't because you are in the position where you have to draw conclusions from way fewer facts than I, by circumstance of history, have at my disposal. If you could see things from my point of view, the wiki entry on CO wouldn't have this as the only mention of Pissof:

And lastly, you may also experiment with chaining PISORF.png PISORF against the Cursed Dragon, if for nothing else than to have an excuse to play a Binlor-worshipping Orc Bloodmage.


And that's a very nice illustration of why intelligence or play skill has nothing to do with it. The rest of the notes and pedantic and observent, and apart from the strategy section quite useful - but the person writing that page just wasn't qualified to write a wiki entry on this dungeon. If you played long enough to resign yourself with the fact that Pissorf is the by far easiest way to deal with that map (whether anyone likes it or not), and a cocky noob threatened you with wiki wars if you tried to write down something they don't understand while having no idea about the actual significance of thier perspective, if the you of today or a few months later had to deal with the you of a few months ago, you would understand my perspective a bit better.

Tinker wrote: You could argue that Assassin is broken because it completely bypasses the damage and most of the traits on the majority of monsters on the map;


Indeed, but from your perspective you can't possibly know why this issue was never brought up. You're trying to apply reason to idiosincracies - Assassin was taken for granted to be conceptually bullshit because it was obvious that if the devs would even put it in the game like that they weren't expecting us to balance test it. It is OBVIOUSLY broken, all tier 3 classess are, for several reasons (one of them being rewarding kingdom progression). The answer to "Hold on, isn't this assassin chappie kind, you know, busted?" wouldn't be a complex arument on the merits of all the classess being different, it would be either some PR stuff about "DD not being concerned with balance but providing different experiences" or otherwise a hugely resounding "doooooooooooooh".

And the "different experiences" quote is an actual quote, stuff that was nerfed was stuff that broke the learning curve, or made the player feel overly stupid/dissapointed for bothering with other things, or could keep the same functionality but not be THAT efficient. Since the devs never fully clued us in on what their criteria for balancing stuff actually was, we had to figure out on our own what's a legit complaint and what isn't. Pissorf would've been brought up if more folks managed to figure out the knockback and blinking rules and then we'd get either tweaks, or some diplomatic form of "quit pestering us, we gave the noobs a cheatcode, dwi", but in the later case it would have been all over the wiki by the time of release.

Tinker wrote: you could argue that the Gorgon is broken because it can completely bypass monster resistances and to a degree even regeneration and death protections;


Yes, except it has actual downsides, and was quite nerfed from what she used to be. The first part is enough for a reasonable person to not even bring her into this, and the second is something you can be aware of or not which impacts your perspective.

Tinker wrote: you could argue that Rat Monarch is broken because you can go in naked into a map, and have a reasonable chance to bypass pretty much the whole map;


Again, the Rat Monarch has at the very least TOKEN downsides and his ability to bypass stuff is often directly related to Pissorf or Knockback, and always involves overcoming his limitations. I could (and did) argue that his design is bullshit in some regards but there's a fair ammount of precedence in favor of him just being like that. He's a reward for 3 Vicious dungeon wins in DL, if those we'rent ATM trivial due to pissorf, he'd be fine. Heck, dislekcia said it himself, they went with two new classess in this update because classess don't mess the general balance so much even if they are over the top, especially classess which are supposed to be easy to obtain. The Vampire is everyone's favourite VGT clearer, and he's got a lot of people who'd otherwise not be able to even dent VGT the 1000 gold, but that's just part of the reward for unlocking him.

That the Crusader is broken because it bypasses most of the debilitative effects; etc., etc.


Which translates to being a good patches user and having an incentive to stack resists (combining a bunch of other elements) and not much more than that. Look, to you all this might even look like legit questions, but you can't possibly reason out the answers, a ton of it boils down to where the line was drawn about what and at what point and you can't know that.

A lot of boons, traits, abilities, items are specifically about what they bypass (that you would normally have to work around the hard way). Come to think of it, BURNDAYRAZ starts out as your "bypass enemy damage" glyph, and it's the most basic thing in the game!


EXACTLY, but what you don't know is how much struggle went into attempting to balance Fireball mechanically, and how much trouble even determining the power curve was supposed to be. I'm perfectly aware of how confusing it can be to try to justify the concept of Fireball (and Gnomes). It did, in the end, end up with mechanics that at least pose a nominal challenge to it - retaliate, magic resistance, blinking, what have you. A good/stubborn player with the right tools can overcome them, but they work. Maybe not well enough, but they're there and in the least bit provide and illusion of a challenge - if you're going to fireball down the Matron, you're going to have to at least acknowledge that it's not the same as fireballing down the Goo Blob. What Pissorf does is have all the benefits of spellcasting, without any truck with all the balancing spellcasting had justifiably warranted and got. It takes being an experienced player and using specific races boons and items to really make the best of fireballs inherent ability to dodge monster attacks - it's so inherently powerful that the game accounted for it from the get go (or through a long testing period). This simply isn't the case for pissorf, which combines the inherent properties of spellcasting with the miraculous ability to bypass almost everything that could possibly deter spellcasting (and which was specifically made to challenge spellcasting).

Nothing in the game works like that, not even most of the bullshit. Assassin can instagib low level monsters, but if there was a monster which said "Can't be instagibbed" - he wouldn't instagib it! Pissorf doesn't even make what it does clear - you can only discover that it bypassess resistances by accident (or by being told). When stuff does stuff in the game, you're generally told what it does, there's tutorials about it - if Pissorf was meant to be legit there would be a tutorial about using Pissorff to bypass resists called "the resist bypassing tutorial", but the game doesn't handle "bypassess everything ever" very well at all. If you take away monster attack (spellcasting) and then take away monster abilities, what do you have left?

Anyway, debating this with you is very pointless. Either you will get bored and move on with your life, or you will understand what I'm saying in time. Not just acknowledge that "someone can see it that way", but understand why it IS that way. I understand that you figured out that there's not that much room for you to swagger in unless you make some for yourself, and you're generally smart about your people handling, so enjoy swaggering and being asked questions and having your opinons matter. You might even earn a basis for it one day.


eastless wrote:If I got Tinker's point right, it's what I was thinking about listening Lujo's speechmaking about 'broken' PISORF - it's just another strat, approach, from bunch of other stuff, and yeah well okay, you found it, showing how to abusing it, okay, you are smart and so on. :) But why it's 'broken' and another stuff is not? It's just one of the edges. I guess it supposed to be that way. By devs. So there is nothing to be fixed.


That is Tinkers point. You've played the game for a month, and you agree with her. That sayes a lot about her point. It's not impossible that it is intentinaly that way by the devs - but it's still not just a strat, it's intentionally broken compared to most other stuff in the game.
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Re: New broken strategy

Postby Tinker on Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:10 pm

@ Lujo, so to paraphrase how your POV comes accross:

i) PISORF is broken because it bypasses stuff and it has no specific counters. There are other things that do the same (i.e. Assassin), but they are not broken, because they *could* have specific counters, they just don't.
ii) If I don't agree with you, it must be because I don't understand what you're saying. Your opinion is fact; not agreeing with you must be that I'm just blind to the facts.
iii) Anyone who wasn't participating in the early playtesting of DD anyways has no right to an opinion about the current state of DD, because they don't understand the previous evolution of the game.
...anything I missed?

I'm starting to have a déjá vu about this discussion...

Lujo wrote:I understand that you figured out that there's not that much room for you to swagger in unless you make some for yourself, and you're generally smart about your people handling, so enjoy swaggering and being asked questions and having your opinons matter. You might even earn a basis for it one day.

Oh my, you're not being nice here! I'm not into some popularity contest, if that's what you think. The reason I try to remain nice to people is simply because I enjoy positive interaction - encouragement, help, even the occasional banter, as long as it's leaving a good feeling. When I started playing, people like Astral, Darvin, even you, encouraged me a lot, and that helped me learn; and some of the discussions I've had on this forum made me try stuff that lead to more fun in DD. And by the way, I'm not nearly as tactful as I'm trying to be. Especially when I'm trying to be funny, I'm sure I sometimes come across as weird or possible even offensive...

The reason I tinker with the Wiki is because I'm sure other players find it very useful to have more information at their disposal. It's not to have my opinion prevail... there are several things I don't agree with on the wiki, but I'm not changing other people's contributions, I'm just adding what's missing. If nothing would be missing, I would have no desire to do anything there.
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Re: New broken strategy

Postby Tinker on Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:24 pm

lordatog wrote:Worst PQI I've ever seen was Elf Monk Warmonger on Cursed Oasis. How would you go about that one?

Here you go:

Image

Taurog, res stack, knockback, aided heavily by a lucky find Martyr Wraps that allowed me to stay mono-Taurog and not even ask for any of his Furies. Without it I probably would have needed to convert (Dracul, GG, Earthmother, JJ can all work; maybe even a late TT swap just for the potions...).

I picked Taurog over The Earthmother because Taurog helps immensely with the early game, though it is clearly poorer later on; but getting the first couple of levels was really important, and I was hoping to find Earthmother and convert into her. Didn't, but it worked out anyway. Glenrick helped but wasn't necessary, I was just about to kill an L5 dragon when I found the sub, so of course I picked him instead... :lol:

Elf (or Gnome) + Warmonger is largely dysfunctional because it's also half-Hoarder (I mean, you *can* convert, it just doesn't really do much... :lol:).

eastless wrote:Any ideas? :)

Win a Daily or flaming dungeon to re-set the PQI... :)
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Re: New broken strategy

Postby eastless on Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:11 am

Nice job Tinker!
>reset PQI
Ha-ha, no, I mean ideas about solving this challenge, silly you! :D
(And I'm always reseting PQI's just by restarting the game, so for now when I'm in stage with only Vicious PQI's my games looks like - start the game, looking on PQI, in 4 of 5 cases close the game, rinse, repeat)
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Re: New broken strategy

Postby dislekcia on Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:38 pm

Lujo... The ice is thin. And this forum was a lot nicer while you were quiet.

Actually, no. Fuck that. Bye Lujo.
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Re: New broken strategy

Postby Tinker on Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:57 am

dislekcia wrote:Bye Lujo.

Oh my, not again... :cry:
I need to learn to just shut the fuck up... :|
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