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Re: The Games

Postby ~'(^ + ^)'~ on Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:45 am

@devilchn:

I am going to revise the Difficulty Multiplier for VGT, so please hold on while I get more opinions from people.

And, I have removed the first boss kill component, so likely that is not going to change. It's a bit hard to say whether mini-bosses in the lower floors of VGT should count as bosses or not but since I didn't mention specifically, I would say it would have been counted if first boss kill component was still in.


So, for the following reasons, I am intending to change Difficulty Multiplier for Vicious Gaan-Telet from 10 to 16 (double of other Vicious Dungeons):

1. Even with preps, VGT is much harder to beat as compared to using preps to beat other Vicious Dungeons. This is my own opinion only (what I feel) and the veterans or experts may think otherwise.

2. The score for a Purist Vicious Token victory of VGT should be worth much higher than what it currently is. I am sure the difficulty definitely quantifies this.

How does everyone feel about the change? Bumping up Difficulty Multiplier for VGT from 10 to 16? I feel that it is a good value, do let me know if you feel other values or more suitable. Thanks!


Also, since I am getting people's opinions, how do you feel if the First Boss Kill component was put back in? To be fair ...
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Re: The Games

Postby Darvin on Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:11 am

~'(^ + ^)'~ wrote:1. Even with preps, VGT is much harder to beat as compared to using preps to beat other Vicious Dungeons. This is my own opinion only (what I feel) and the veterans or experts may think otherwise.

2. The score for a Purist Vicious Token victory of VGT should be worth a much higher score than what it currently is. I am sure the difficulty definitely quantifies this.

How does everyone feel about the change?

Increasing the multiplier on VGT sounds fine, although I think x16 is probably a bit too high. I wouldn't make purist more valuable; it's already more valuable than any other badge under your current scoring metric, and the higher multiplier makes up for the higher difficulty on VGT.
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Re: The Games

Postby ~'(^ + ^)'~ on Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:15 am

Darvin wrote:I wouldn't make purist more valuable; it's already more valuable than any other badge under your current scoring metric, and the higher multiplier makes up for the higher difficulty on VGT.

I am not changing the value for Purist badge. But would you agree with me that Purist is the hardest? Especially if combined with Vicious Token.
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Re: The Games

Postby Darvin on Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:26 am

~'(^ + ^)'~ wrote:I am not changing the value for Purist badge. But would you agree with me that Purist is the hardest? Especially if combined with Vicious Token.

I'd agree it's the hardest, but not by a significant margin. After removing the "easy" badges (cheeky, ding! max, unstoppable, and specialist; all should be a given on a VGT run by the nature of the dungeon) the badges of contention are Purist, Warmonger, Hoarder, Faithless, and Miser. Between these I'd say Purist is the hardest, but it's easier than trying to go for two of the other badges. Being worth effectively 13 points it's still overvalued IMO.
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Re: The Games

Postby ~'(^ + ^)'~ on Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:40 am

Darvin wrote:I'd agree it's the hardest, but not by a significant margin. After removing the "easy" badges (cheeky, ding! max, unstoppable, and specialist; all should be a given on a VGT run by the nature of the dungeon) the badges of contention are Purist, Warmonger, Hoarder, Faithless, and Miser. Between these I'd say Purist is the hardest, but it's easier than trying to go for two of the other badges. Being worth effectively 13 points it's still overvalued IMO.


Ok, that's specific to VGT. In general, Purist should be worth a lot of points because how would one make it any easier (there is no other way!). But if I am going for say Warmonger, all I need is to prep GG or Taurog, that's a -1 for a +4.

Hoarder is hard for VGT but Warmonger (and Feeling Parched) are easily achievable with the Vampire (though you will need preps which will bring the score down).

The way I see it, Purist vs Bringing 1 Prep only gives a net of +6 (+5 and less -1). Obviously, the more you prep, the greater the worth of Purist badge for someone who doesn't prep anything at all.

Again, as I mentioned, it is rather hard to get a system that is "fair" given the different classes's strengths, the relative difficulty of badges to the dungeons, etc.
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Re: The Games

Postby ~'(^ + ^)'~ on Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:26 am

1. Ok, how about this, let me know which value you think would be most suitable for the difficulty multiplier for Vicious Gaan-Telet? Proposed Range: 12 to 16.

2. Put back in First Boss Kill component? Agree or Disagree? Let me know too.

Thanks! :)
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Re: The Games

Postby Tinker on Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:24 am

Whatever you end up scoring, you'll "get what you measure". For example, the current system is skewed towards valuing Purist Vicious + VT games, with lots of badges and/or very short completion time.

I think if your goal is just to have fun, it doesn't really matter how the scoring works, as long as it moves folks to post/try some runs. If your goal is to measure some degree of skill or achievement, you may find it more difficult to come up with "the right" scoring metric, as it might be different for everyone...
Spoiler: show
For example, my playstyle is such that I attach no value to time completion within a given run; but I try to avoid scumming and generally multiple attempts (except for very few VGT badges that I couldn't do without). So I'd rather have one long run that wins a map, than 2-3 short ones where the first runs lose and the last one wins. I do try to optimize leveling, which might give me earlier bosskills / more bonus XP than those people who don't care about this thing. I don't really collect badges, normally, but sometimes I just realize that I got some (for example, in the NL run I didn't get specialist; because I found it flashier to use a combination of fireballs and melee attacks to kill Namtar's last form; utterly silly from badge point of view because either melee or fireballs would've been more than enough).

I don't expect you to cater to my specific whims in your scoring, though, I'm totally fine with any system you come up with, and I'm also totally fine if my runs won't rank with the highest according to the final system, even if I banter with Darvin a bit about him being on top... ;)
"Thinker", just without the "ache".
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Re: The Games

Postby ~'(^ + ^)'~ on Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:04 am

For the time being, I am adding back in First Boss Kill component and setting Difficulty Multiplier for VGT to 12 (up from 10).

@devilchn: I am only counting the "special" mini-bosses in the sub-floors of VGT as bosses, and I have to assume it is the Goblin that you killed at level 5 rather than the L8 Gorgon which you killed at level 1.

@Tinker: For bosses that resurrect, only actually killing them counts, so I have to take the 2nd form kill as a proper first kill.

Have revised the leaderboard accordingly.
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Re: The Games

Postby devilchn on Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:39 am

~'(^ + ^)'~ wrote:@devilchn: I am only counting the "special" mini-bosses in the sub-floors of VGT as bosses, and I have to assume it is the Goblin that you killed at level 5 rather than the L8 Gorgon which you killed at level 1.

Actually, the special boss of this floor was Yang, which I killed at level 1, but since he is no XP he doesn't show up on the victory screen.
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Re: The Games

Postby ~'(^ + ^)'~ on Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:42 am

devilchn wrote:Actually, the special boss of this floor was Yang, which I killed at level 1, but since he is no XP he doesn't show up on the victory screen.

Ok, I will update your score, :)
I can't know for sure whether it is after you reached level 5 or not, so I am taking your word for it.
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