Confessions

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Re: Confessions

Postby Darvin on Mon May 16, 2016 12:54 am

Lujo wrote:So glad to hear this, we could confess to getting stuff buffed and nerfed XD

Darvin, Deity: He got JJ nerfed several times.
Avatar, Deity: He did this for binlor
Lujo, Deity: Got TT to pay less for tribute. Also get nerfed a lot.

I think we all put in some work on Binlor. JJ had more than a few abusers. Tikki Tooki is all on you, though.

Lujo wrote:I loved the moment when a bunch of us guys went and did some math and stuff and decided that, yes, by god, Getindare is the most powerful dmg glyph in the game. The time it also added dodge chance it was the most retarded glyph in the game (FUN, but it literally broke the game in all sort of places like adding unintended solution to puzzles).

Remember when it also added dodge prediction!? Dear god was that broken. I think the devs knew it, too, they just wanted to test the water. Results: dodge prediction is fricken broken, and Quicksilver is only okay because it's a highly limited access item.

Lujo wrote:
Darvin wrote:WONAFYT: love to hate it


Curious about this. I personally find this glyph to be more disruptive than any other glyph becaue it does so many things for such a low cost. The efficiency boost is huge, and once you know your footwork it just wrecks. Sure, some wiseass will come in with situations where Wheytwut is strictly superios and whatever, but I'm pretty sure I can tell why it was never given to a god, thank god. Imagine Magne: Wonafyt? :lol:

Oh, I'm well aware of its power. That's exactly why I love to hate it, because it is stupidly powerful in the right situations. Of course, it's also frustratingly useless if you find it even moderately late in exploration. No other glyph varies so wildly in power based on when you find it, and that made it simultaneously ridiculously overpowered and ridiculously underpowered. Hence, why I love to hate it.


Speaking of old combos, how about the Fire Heart Bloodmage? Back then the Fire Heart was the only way to get burning, BLUDTUPOWA offered x2 mana regeneration at the cost of no health regeneration, and burning was uncapped. I can't believe how long that one flew under the radar. I guess because it wasn't winning any of the vicious dungeons of the day (because they all mostly had severe blackspace limitations and way higher HP totals than they do now) it was left alone, but it was basically an auto-win in the hard difficulty dungeons which only had 1 boss back then.
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Re: Confessions

Postby Lujo on Mon May 16, 2016 10:13 am

Lot's of old-timer talk, mostly replies to darvin
Spoiler: show
Darvin wrote:I think we all put in some work on Binlor. JJ had more than a few abusers. Tikki Tooki is all on you, though.


^ Eh, true about Binlor. But I think it was Avatar really abusing him first, then it got popular when we tried to figure out how the hell was he beating everything (from my perspective, I asked him, he explained, a lot of it was Binlor res stacking / maphack abuse). But yeah, too many people would confess to just hating maze maps. I kinda learned to love them eventually because they do add to the challenge. At first you're all about trying to make your life easier at any cost, but then you realize most of what you can do is overkill and start trying to find ways to actually challenge yoursef. I suppose.

I got a weird perspective on JJ, I just left him to other people for the longest time. I'm kinda sorry about that. I know about some other things - I'd explore it a bit, it'd turn out silly, get nerfed, I'd think it's fine because I was sed to the silly level, but I wouldn't be able to follow up on whether it was nerfed enough. I think this happened with Binlor on a grander scale simply because his exploity stuff was so popular that folks only ever mass delved into how you actually use him after the devs weren't likely do anything anymore. JJ had this happen to him to, IMO. Maybe there's just something fundamentally silly about a god who just slaps big bars on you for popcorn-bowling? Like how old GG made you god for playing in a way that you wanted to play in anyway?

TT though...

Well, here's a regret - I whish the whole big clusterf**k of "too much CP on everything" + "monk with resist everything" + "GG too abusable" + "TT's poison essentially a cheatcode" + "halpmeh too good considering the general power of resist stacking in the system" - I whish that could've been handled more gradually. I was a problem because of the way I handled it, but I only really handled it the way I did because there was so many things noone was paying attention to which were retarded and they happened to get all fused into a cretionous exploit bonanza. I even left Drac out of it on purpose, Drac would've been the third limited unlock god, but there was just no need before VGT, you'd have old GG, old TT, old Drac, old Monk, old Orc, old CP motherload on basic items on every run in every dungeon. Untangling that mess to pinpoint what the actual problem was could've been done better, and if we were modding it today, I think I'd personally go undo some of what was done (would also possibly help a bunch of stuff with vicious Halls of Steel, possibly).

I think TT's poison (and the old way of poison) had to go because it was so ludicrous (you might remember the "troll test" where it'd be really difficult to prove to a troll that the effects of it weren't an actual cheatcode). But I think it was nerfed just a bit too hard for TT and I'm kinda sure Gorgon needed something done to her to compensate afterwards as she's just too painful and awkward now.

But I think the main deal with it was that it was just too universally good and that taking the magic resistance off the Monk solved a bunch of stuff on it's own. Made him have a downside, and this made whatever way you could abuse him just not work everywhere all the time. So I think maybe TT's poison touch could've been a tad easier to build up, Halpmeh could've maybe been a bit stronger, etc.

Darvin wrote:Remember when it also added dodge prediction!? Dear god was that broken. I think the devs knew it, too, they just wanted to test the water. Results: dodge prediction is fricken broken, and Quicksilver is only okay because it's a highly limited access item.


Yeah, that's what I meant :lol: I remember doing Rogue Silver (one with Midas) off pretty much nothing but Dodge Prediction and not having a clue about how you were actually supposed to do it ^^ That's a big part of why I didn't like broken crap - you go test something, happen to use soemthing like dodge prediction, end up thinking it's fine. Someone goes in without using the exact bit of silly nonsense later, goes mad trying to get anywhere.

"Let's test whether everything is reasonably beatable for the average user. Right! *goes in everywhere with Goblin Assassin* Yep, everything fine, make game harder plox!" Supstitute Goblin Assassin for whatever's your mindles VT clearer.

Darvin wrote:Oh, I'm well aware of its power. That's exactly why I love to hate it, because it is stupidly powerful in the right situations. Of course, it's also frustratingly useless if you find it even moderately late in exploration. No other glyph varies so wildly in power based on when you find it, and that made it simultaneously ridiculously overpowered and ridiculously underpowered. Hence, why I love to hate it.


Oh, hmmm. I seem to have a vague recollection of something about it regularly spawning around the entrance (although different maps probably have different spawning algorithms). So maybe a specific exploration patern would help in this regard?

Darvin wrote:Speaking of old combos, how about the Fire Heart Bloodmage?


I think the problem was that bloodmages were underestmated on Vicious Difficulty. Not sure if they were even underestimated, because I can't remember if Crystal Ball was there yet (was added rather late), Pissorff wasn't preppable, not sure if gods were preppable yet, and B2P regenned monsters as well (or did it, which iteration was this?).

I remember abusing Bloodmages regardless of the burning thing, because of the silly skillset, but any discussion on them was kinda cut short due to "yeah, but that's just sub-vicious". Then I made a few vids and then we did some math and figured out that IF you can prep stuff, and not too much stuff mind you, they're just all upside and have 0 challenge to their gameplay + they effectivelly increase the total ammount of blackspace in a level by some number. Much like monks, in fact. So you could Pissorff stuff by hitting it into walls and not bypassing resistance (in other words sawing down trees with an electrical saw you don't ever turn on), simply due to the skillset. Starting mana got hit, B2P got nerfed (I think) and they're still champs.

So it's more than just that one exploit that was overlooked about them for quite a while. I think it's because folks just forced gnomes with them or something? I whish I could sit down for a beer with the old crew and try to puzzle out why it took us so long to figure out some stuff about the BM.


Eh, I whish this thing was moddable. Or tweakable, rather. It probably is, I just never bothered. I'd be really conservative about modding it, but I would try a few things out just to see what happens. Not too many people I'd trust with modding it, though.
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Re: Confessions

Postby Darvin on Mon May 16, 2016 3:53 pm

I think the problem was that bloodmages were underestmated on Vicious Difficulty. Not sure if they were even underestimated, because I can't remember if Crystal Ball was there yet (was added rather late), Pissorff wasn't preppable, not sure if gods were preppable yet, and B2P regenned monsters as well (or did it, which iteration was this?).

I think the bigger issue was that vicious difficulty was way more brutal back then, largely equivalent to what vicious VT is now. You certainly could take the Bloodmage of that era, apply modern Desktop Dungeons strategies, and succeed in those brutal vicious dungeons. However, he would legitimately be weak compared to the dominant combos back then which were completely broken by today's standard. The amount of effort required to get a Bloodmage to work in the original Naga City would be quite daunting indeed. There's a reason most people went with Dragonshield resist stacking.

Crystal Ball didn't exist yet, gods were not yet preppable, JJ and Pactmaker had yet to be introduced at all, Binlor and Mystera were utter garbage other than piety farms for other deities. Monsters did recover when you used BLUDTUPOWA, but for spamming burning that didn't matter.
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Re: Confessions

Postby Lujo on Mon May 16, 2016 4:27 pm

He was the chemist, and fire heart was like spell based corrosion - except it broke, didn't it? Vicious dungeons are notoriously cramped. That might explain it.

But I do remember kicking ass with the old bloodmages somehow. I remember people complaining about the old B2P (today's chemist mana potion power) for some reason (it was imposible to calculate or something). I know there was a phase when you could do very stupid things with Martyr Wraps and Bloodmage, I don't think that needed any of the refils that were added later...

We hd a different attitude towards Vicious because the stats, too. There was the the mindset of "only a few things can beat a vicious dungeon", so I think a lot of stuff just never even got tried? I think the res stacking craze was the first time we got the idea that you could really beat any dungeon with any class, or that more folks warmed up to the idea that this should be so.

And on the subject of Pactmaker, lol, do you remember how Consensus got nerfed? We were talking about something else when there was this moment when someone went "Ok, guys, fess up, who's been using Pactmaker just for free 50 piety with no downside" and then like 10 people were, "I admit", "You got me!", "You mean he's got other stuff?" :lol:
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Re: Confessions

Postby Darvin on Mon May 16, 2016 5:42 pm

Lujo wrote:And on the subject of Pactmaker, lol, do you remember how Consensus got nerfed? We were talking about something else when there was this moment when someone went "Ok, guys, fess up, who's been using Pactmaker just for free 50 piety with no downside" and then like 10 people were, "I admit", "You got me!", "You mean he's got other stuff?" :lol:

As a JJ lover, the fact that the original Consensus disqualified you for Chaos Avatar was a pretty big downside. But yeah, for just about every other conceivable scenario the Pactmaker was just a free 50 piety gift basket.
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Re: Confessions

Postby Caulder on Wed May 18, 2016 2:03 pm

Well Since this is largely about looking back on your early experience with the game early on I didn't know about level cannons so I always hoarded my potions for the boss (No really I did this till I was done with most the basic dungeons) and I never unlocked Binlor was really confused about why I didn't have all the gods and thought the goat god sub-dungeon unlocked the last god and thought you had to kill all the goats before you leave the sub-dungeon to restore the alter or something it was only really when I looked up help for vicious steel I ever even found out about him XD
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Re: Confessions

Postby The Avatar on Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:39 am

Just on the topic of old Binlor, the problem was mostly that vicious maps had way too many magic monsters. All of the vicious dungeons were 50% or more magic. You could take any class, use Binlor to rack up an easy 65% magic resistance, and tear apart everything. If I remember correctly, I posted 100% completions for all the vicious dungeons using only that strategy. Then again, that was before Naga City. Also, how about the old monk? In retrospect it's absurd it took so long for his magic res to get removed, but boy did it hurt to see it go.
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Re: Confessions

Postby Lujo on Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:34 am

The Avatar wrote:Just on the topic of old Binlor, the problem was mostly that vicious maps had way too many magic monsters. All of the vicious dungeons were 50% or more magic. You could take any class, use Binlor to rack up an easy 65% magic resistance, and tear apart everything. If I remember correctly, I posted 100% completions for all the vicious dungeons using only that strategy. Then again, that was before Naga City. Also, how about the old monk? In retrospect it's absurd it took so long for his magic res to get removed, but boy did it hurt to see it go.


Oh man I seriously worried something happened to you!

Yeah, where you really feel it is Vicious Steel. It has an anti-regen fighting (or more precisely res stacking) roster to begin with, but at least it didn't matter that so many were magic damage monsters. That made it laughable to the Berserker. But now a fighting monk in there is just obviously absurdly difficult. Probably the most difficult non-VGT run in the game, objectively.

And what you say about stacking res with Binlor - it's still the same, except it's usually easier to just pisorf everything down like a madman with most things in most dungeons.
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