Miscellaneous Questions Topic

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Miscellaneous Questions Topic

Postby choongmyoung on Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:54 pm

It'd be very nice to have "ASK A QUESTION, GET AN ANSWER" thread for a forum. DD has a well designed learning curve, and finding all the way out to completely understanding the logics behind it is difficult. Comments from experts would be very helpful to beginners and moderate players.

I, personally, had many questions about lots of strategies, synergies and how-to-use-that-things. So I open up a miscellaneous questions thread.




Any detailed comments to Naga city Vampire run? Seven tries, all failures at the third wave.
Preps: Whupaz+Reflex+Quicksilver+Shadenfraude, Dragon Shield, Patches, Quest Items, Attack Boosters, Translocation Seal, Perserverance Badge. I usually convert everything (including potions) but BURNDAYRAZ. A lot of time this brings me to ~20% resistances, 5 stacks of life steal and 70-80 attack with lv9 character.

I'm struggling with potions, Kegs and Yendor conversion. Should I convert them all to get 8+ life steal? A video would be nice but anyways.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Topic

Postby Darvin on Thu Sep 01, 2016 4:21 pm

I'm struggling with potions, Kegs and Yendor conversion. Should I convert them all to get 8+ life steal?

No, definitely use these for their effect. +7 lifesteal with resistances is more than sufficient to harvest Super Meat man for lots of free healing, and against the other bosses the extra +1 lifesteal won't be that big of a deal. The hardest part of the arena battle are the two undead bosses, and these items will be very useful against them.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Topic

Postby choongmyoung on Thu Sep 01, 2016 5:44 pm

Thanks a lot for your help! Done!
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Topic

Postby choongmyoung on Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:18 pm

Doubt about a wiki description.

The best way to leverage it is to conserve popcorn (low level mosters) as much as possible during leveling. Then when you're ready to fight the boss you first kill 4 little guys for +60% damage, which is a lot and practically unparallel. You then strike the boss, and it drops to +30%. Kill two more little guys and you're back to 60% for the next strike. This is the most optimal way to play the crusader, and it makes him one of the highest damage classess in the game in a stable way.


IMO, the best way to get maximum bonuses from the popcorns are slaying them as many as possible just before a level-up, then beginning to attack the boss, assuming there is only one boss. (And finally a levelup catapult and popcorn munch, of course)

Because each popcorn can afford bonus attack at maximum (15% + 7.5% + 3.25% + ...), the optimal way to get maximum benefit from them is doing as many attacks as possible after consuming the popcorns. For example, If you attack once after a popcorn consumption, you get +15% bonus. But if you attack twice after, you get +22% bonus.

Am I missing something?
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Topic

Postby Darvin on Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:46 pm

choongmyoung wrote:Because each popcorn can afford bonus attack at maximum (15% + 7.5% + 3.25% + ...), the optimal way to get maximum benefit from them is doing as many attacks as possible after consuming the popcorns. For example, If you attack once after a popcorn consumption, you get +15% bonus. But if you attack twice after, you get +22% bonus.

Am I missing something?

Let's run through the math to illustrate the point. Just for the sake of keeping the numbers as simple as possible I'm going to say your base attack is 100 and you have +0% attack bonus from other sources. The results are the same regardless of what you choose for base attack and attack bonus. Let's presume we have a total of 8 popcorn we wish to consume. Let's look at the expected damage over a total of four attacks given the two consumption sequences:

Sequence 1
Consume 4 popcorn, then 2 popcorn between each additional attack.
1) Consume four popcorn (up to +60%)
2) Attack for 160 damage, consume popcorn (down to 30%, up to 60%)
3) Attack for 160 damage, consume popcorn (down to 30%, up to 60%)
4) Attack for 160 damage, consume popcorn (down to 30%, up to 60%)
5) Attack for 160 damage

This results in 640 damage.

Sequence 2
Consume 8 popcorn, then attack
1) Consume 8 popcorn (up to +120%)
2) Attack for 220 damage (down to 60%)
3) Attack for 160 damage (down to 30%)
4) Attack for 130 damage (down to 15%)
5) Attack for 115 damage (down to 7%)

This results in 625 damage.

As you can see the damage output is actually quite close under either approach (hence why my position on the matter is "don't worry"), but it is true that the staggered approach does provide a small gain. If you can make more attacks than this, then the staggered method becomes much better, so it's worth remembering against Super Meat Man. The reason for this is because the bonus is halved between each attack, so the higher your current bonus the more you lose between each blow.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Topic

Postby Tinker on Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:05 pm

Math's off, you count 10 popcorn for the staggered approach and only 8 for the one-time-consume. OP is actually right, munching everything upfront does provide you highest overall damage, you'd lose 30 damage in the last hit and do less overall damage.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Topic

Postby Darvin on Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:23 pm

Tinker wrote:Math's off, you count 10 popcorn for the staggered approach and only 8 for the one-time-consume. OP is actually right, munching everything upfront does provide you highest overall damage, you'd lose 30 damage in the last hit and do less overall damage.

**mutter mutter** making so many stupid mistakes recently **mutter mutter**

I could have sworn there was a gain somewhere from the sequencing, but after revisiting the math it's very clear that given a sufficient number of attacks for the decay to complete all sequences result in the same total damage boost. Consuming everything all at once just gets the damage out there sooner, which is preferable.

Still doesn't change my advice, though: don't worry about it, the difference between the two approaches is small, pay attention to other sequencing issues.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Topic

Postby Lujo on Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:13 am

There was some point to it other than munching everything, or possibly several points.

60%+ from an ability is the most there is in the game, so if you've got that you've got the biggest class-based attack bonus in the game allready, no need to push it further. If 60% not enough you're doing something else wrong.

The other thing is that it's a sweetspot where keeping it stable and big is simple.

Eat 10 popcorn in a row you're at 150%.
Half of that is 75%.
Half of that is 37.5%
Half is 18.25%
Half is 9.125%

290% Total bonus damage.

Eat 4 popcorn hit 60%.
2 more 60%
2 more 60%
2 more 60%
no more but 30%
no more but 15%

285 or more or less the same thing, except you get one more hit out of it. If 7.5% is relevant then that too, but it's nitpicking. But if it's nitpicking one more hit and you're over 290 by 2.5 pts. And the other guy can get over that with one more hit by a few points. But 10 popcorn is low, people tended to go for more, and the higher you go the more you risk losing if you either level up or are forced to break it in any way.

However, if you ever break it by leveling up at 60, you lose the least possible ammount you can lose on a non-hit (15%), not counting being at 30% which is also perfectly fine for res stackers. Get it up to 150% (or above, 150% isn't that much), you're setting yourself up to lose more than 15 or even just 7.5.

Also - eating a bunch of popcorn is liable to level you up, or set you up to level up. Eating them bit by bit as default gives more breathing room and is prefferable unless you REAAAAAAAALY can only ever get that one big hit in for whatever reason.

The thing is that why spend everything if 60% is the most you can generally get anyway? If anything forces you to level up or attack something else or you're looking at 2 bossess being conservative generally helps. It's also written from a resist stacking perspective / tanky perspective, I'm not even sure about what happens with the double-strike approach.

And most importantly - people tended to think in terms of "Momentum is the biggest deal so I have to play Crusader runs by madly attacking everything as soon as I see it and keep momentum from killing everything", and the way the whole page is written is to really hammer home that "Momentum past 60% is semi-trivial, you're at most you ever get with anyone at 60% and the game's balanced so everything's doable below it. Calm down and pay attention to the other stuff, it's way more relevant and there are other Crusaders besides Orcs".

Anyone can figure out momentum, but people can be at the stage where they believe themselves copetent and still just see Crusader as just being about Momentum. And at the same time he's completely ludicrous in scenarios where Momentum can't possibly come into play which makes the whole "how to cheeze Momentum" thing a sidetrack from getting to be really good and versatile with the Class.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Topic

Postby choongmyoung on Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:59 am

Nice analysis, Lujo.

So yeah - even if is is mathematically optimal to go through a big one hit, you have to risk something like leveling up or fighting a 2nd boss, and getting the bonus tiny <10% damage is generally not worth it. DD is not only about calculation but also about information and strategy stuff.

BTW, I see a crusader as immunity king more than momentum. Or is it only me. ;)
My playstyle is consuming some popcorns when I need a little damage bonus while leveling, and thus conserving more resources. It also allows me to salt every popcorn.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Topic

Postby andrewcurrall on Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:23 am

In any case, the advice on the wiki regarding this is most certainly wrong. Granted, it makes little difference, but it's still bad advice. The correct strategy when boss-fighting with a Crusader and Momentum is to kill as much as you can without leveling, hit the boss until you run out of health and mana, kill more popcorn to level (and as much as you can until you're about to level again, supposing you have enough to level twice), and repeat. Killing 1-2 popcorn between hits is pointless.
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