Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby The Avatar on Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:00 pm

shade_of_ox wrote:I think the problem with Lekon's Table Curious is the horrible enemy pool. Curious in particular pretty much forces you to play a striker because of all the debuffs. So I think Rogue would actually be a good call there, as well.

Strategy aside, I'm assuming you haven't balanced this around Yendor? Because if the main gimmick is that leveling is very difficult, Yendor seems like a no-brainer prep that pretty much destroys this dungeon. This is the problem with dungeons where the main challenge is leveling - Yendor usually can just brute force them. I would say, make leveling a little easier, but in exchange make the bosses a little harder.

I think maybe what would be interesting would be to give the player some way to get mark of the Goat. Maybe by killing Cultists (who otherwise are horrible enemies that you would never want to fight). As it is, The One Horn actually seems to be a very solid prep here.


I'm not even sure Yendor is enough to save you here. Unlike other dungeons where you can just level up out of reach and spike the boss, in LT you still basically have to kill everything. And although taking out The Sacrifice early will convert everything into Lekon sins free of charge, that's still a sickening amount of enemies to be forced to chop through which sport basically the toughest set of traits in the game. (Like really, if you had the sins be the spawn in any regular dungeon it'd just be awful.) Agreed that as is it's not the most interesting challenge though, as you tend to just get stonewalled no matter what you try. However the revives are fully deterministic so in theory there's some complex tricks you can do to meaningfully lower the difficulty on some things. That being said, a Yendor mage who just leans into the fact that they won't clear any enemies and uses the boss's corrosion against itself can probably squeeze this out. So if/when this gets revision it'll probably cut Lekon's self-corrode and maybe add some more razzmatazz to his abilities while simultaneously bringing the bar down a little on the Sins (like only giving each one awful trait instead of 2-4...).

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This is why I love Dracul. That's five, count em', FIVE stacks of life steal, thanks to a Draining Blade prep (I didn't find Vampiric Blade though).


:|
Is this really even a JJ rogue run anymore? Regardless, that's one way to brute force a problem. That much lifesteal will make quick work of Prototype 1 and the final boss, so then really it's only number 3 to contend with. Makes me wonder if Vampire might not be an awful pick for the challenge...
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby shade_of_ox on Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:58 pm

OK, so I've done a bit more scouting of Curious LT.

The sin spawns seem to be Pride -> Wrath -> Lust -> Sloth -> Gluttony -> Envy -> Greed, repeating.
This actually provides an interesting depth because before you tackle a high level monster, you can kill some popcorn to cycle through the more difficult sins.

Some thoughts on the sins:
Pride: Easy kill unless you're relying on resists - try and use your piety before fighting a high level one.
Wrath: They seem to have a number of DPs corresponding to levels, which makes them very difficult. Self-cannon shenanigans with CYDSTEPP should be possible, though, since they have 500% knockback. Don't fight them at high levels unless you're a caster, though.
Lust: Straightforward easy kill. Also, you can farm them for free piety as they spawn Lekon's Chosen, which give you goat piety. If you find BURNDAYRAZ early on, it's worth it to kill a few popcorn (or level 2s) just to get a Lust, at which point you can use BURNDAYRAZ and kill the spawns (you'll get 2 spawns per cast of BURNDAYRAZ because of the burning pop. This means you get 4 piety per 6 mana, the most efficient way to get piety through exploration in the game. Add this to Mystera, say, and you're really rolling in piety.
Sloth: These enemies suck. I would leave them alone altogether. Spawn these from undead popcorn so you don't miss out on the bloodpool, and just leave them alone, unless you have a Weakening cure. It might be feasible to fight them with a tanky low-damage build, but such a build struggles with literally everything else in the dungeon so you shouldn't bother.
Gluttony: Straightforward easy kill. These guys are probably the easiest ones to kill, as long as you don't regen fight. Treat them as Serpents or Trolls.
Envy: Bad unless you have Soul Orb or are a melee specialist (which struggles here, as in most EE Vicious). Ideally spawn these from undead so you don't get an acid pool. Corrosion cure required, but you should be carrying one anyway if you're using The One Horn...
Greed: Not terrible once you see it coming. Don't ever kill a popcorn to spawn one of these. Good for high level kills, but make sure you pour all your health and mana into the spawning enemy to avoid the insane stats they'll get. Especially mana.

If I were to give any criticism, it would be to either remove Weakening Blow from Sloth, or at least reduce the Riposte to 50%. As it is, they pretty much are completely untouchable because Riposte is so strong, and has Weakening Blow attached. Even if they only had Riposte 100%, they would already be very difficult enemies for most builds, but Weakening on top of that just makes them completely untouchable.

I have no notes on the boss yet. If the Vessel has the same gimmick as before, it looks like he's going to be getting a full heal from his goats, because I don't see a reasonable way to kill any significant amount of the Sins. Also, you lose a lot of blackspace that you normally get from the goat transformation since you can't safely explore it without losing all your health/mana. Therefore it's best to try and spike him down to when he gets the refill. Cursed Cutlass, resists, Life Steal, and maybe Binlor are necessary to erode his huge resists after he refills. An alternative way to get around this is using LEMMISI or BLUDTUPOWA, but I don't see how I'm supposed to kill any real amount of the sins without using far too many resources...

Oh, by the way, I don't think I've mentioned this, but this entire seven sins idea is very cool. I'm excited to play through it for real to see how it actually plays out!
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby shade_of_ox on Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:58 am

Curious FF and Curious VGT drained a lot of money from me, so I decided to do some money grinding. I'm going to do all the Normal and Hard Curious now, I think.
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This run in particular was very close, and also much more difficult than the usual Ick Swamp. Very well done in my opinion, the plants regrowing and Itsssamna blinking (which I didn't realize until the last second) brought me a very close run, even with the Heretic. I won mostly due to the four or 5 extra mana potions I got from the fact that Corrupting Aura gives you CP for losing piety as a Heretic. My random boss was also the Firstborn, which didn't make this run any easier for my caster build.

You definitely hit the mark with "taking the dungeon's gimmick to an extreme" here. The plants are actually a real threat here, as opposed to normal Ick Swamp where you can just kind of cut through them and ignore them for the most part. I had a fun time!
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby The Avatar on Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:01 am

shade_of_ox wrote:OK, so I've done a bit more scouting of Curious LT.

The sin spawns seem to be Pride -> Wrath -> Lust -> Sloth -> Gluttony -> Envy -> Greed, repeating.
This actually provides an interesting depth because before you tackle a high level monster, you can kill some popcorn to cycle through the more difficult sins.

Some thoughts on the sins:
Pride: Easy kill unless you're relying on resists - try and use your piety before fighting a high level one.
Wrath: They seem to have a number of DPs corresponding to levels, which makes them very difficult. Self-cannon shenanigans with CYDSTEPP should be possible, though, since they have 500% knockback. Don't fight them at high levels unless you're a caster, though.
Lust: Straightforward easy kill. Also, you can farm them for free piety as they spawn Lekon's Chosen, which give you goat piety. If you find BURNDAYRAZ early on, it's worth it to kill a few popcorn (or level 2s) just to get a Lust, at which point you can use BURNDAYRAZ and kill the spawns (you'll get 2 spawns per cast of BURNDAYRAZ because of the burning pop. This means you get 4 piety per 6 mana, the most efficient way to get piety through exploration in the game. Add this to Mystera, say, and you're really rolling in piety.
Sloth: These enemies suck. I would leave them alone altogether. Spawn these from undead popcorn so you don't miss out on the bloodpool, and just leave them alone, unless you have a Weakening cure. It might be feasible to fight them with a tanky low-damage build, but such a build struggles with literally everything else in the dungeon so you shouldn't bother.
Gluttony: Straightforward easy kill. These guys are probably the easiest ones to kill, as long as you don't regen fight. Treat them as Serpents or Trolls.
Envy: Bad unless you have Soul Orb or are a melee specialist (which struggles here, as in most EE Vicious). Ideally spawn these from undead so you don't get an acid pool. Corrosion cure required, but you should be carrying one anyway if you're using The One Horn...
Greed: Not terrible once you see it coming. Don't ever kill a popcorn to spawn one of these. Good for high level kills, but make sure you pour all your health and mana into the spawning enemy to avoid the insane stats they'll get. Especially mana.

If I were to give any criticism, it would be to either remove Weakening Blow from Sloth, or at least reduce the Riposte to 50%. As it is, they pretty much are completely untouchable because Riposte is so strong, and has Weakening Blow attached. Even if they only had Riposte 100%, they would already be very difficult enemies for most builds, but Weakening on top of that just makes them completely untouchable.

I have no notes on the boss yet. If the Vessel has the same gimmick as before, it looks like he's going to be getting a full heal from his goats, because I don't see a reasonable way to kill any significant amount of the Sins. Also, you lose a lot of blackspace that you normally get from the goat transformation since you can't safely explore it without losing all your health/mana. Therefore it's best to try and spike him down to when he gets the refill. Cursed Cutlass, resists, Life Steal, and maybe Binlor are necessary to erode his huge resists after he refills. An alternative way to get around this is using LEMMISI or BLUDTUPOWA, but I don't see how I'm supposed to kill any real amount of the sins without using far too many resources...

Oh, by the way, I don't think I've mentioned this, but this entire seven sins idea is very cool. I'm excited to play through it for real to see how it actually plays out!


Yep, the cycle is very much a key part of the challenge. You raise a fair point about sloth though. Even 0 damage is not enough to offset them dealing as much as they have health and 2 weakening for every physical attack (and 1 for non-physicals as well).

As for your boss notes, there are two things to remember: First, the boss accumulates corrosion on every goat consume. So in theory you can rack up quite a large amount of corrosion by whupazing him to 75% and then allowing him to consume a ton of times until he does his full restore. Of course, his damage also increases with these consumptions, so switching to BURNDAYRAZ after all of this seems ideal. Second, although his resists appear to be capped at 90%, they are technically uncapped. So if he consumes enough sins to put his resists at, say, 120%, then the first 30% resists you strip will not reduce his resistances one bit. This is actually base game behavior that can be found in Stheno.

All that aside, I very much look forward to seeing what you cook up!
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby Nurator on Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:31 am

The Avatar wrote:
Nurator wrote:The problem is, even if you reduce the boss by 1 health, my strategy will not work anymore... it is optimized on certain break points and I am fairly certain, no other branch will be better, but not 100% sure there...

But if you dont want to go through the trouble yourself, maybe just tell me your opening move. You said, you remember these steps by heart, right? I know why :D I did mine 1000 times to get to 1 HP...
@shade_of_ox: This puzzle is so crazily precise, you are not even close :D


Actually, I'm beginning to think my opening move is outdated, because I've only gotten the boss down to 8ish health. But why wouldn't your strategy work if the boss had one less health? Do you quite literally get within 1 damage of triggering berserk, making the 1 health reduction ruin your strategy?

At the same time, I'm still not certain that it is unbeatable. The version before this had 2 less health and I am certain that one was beaten by both me and other players. This version resulted from one of their solutions, so I can dig back through to see if I can find it.


Yes, I really get to 231 HP with a strike. As I said, it is totally optimized :D
Spoiler: show
- I have 1 HP and 0 mana left at lvl 1
- There is not a single potion (including WHUPAZ) that is not triggering Trisword and the times I take them are optimized (mostly around 3-4 damage increase)
- I only use BYSSEPS when Triforce has at least +5 damage, I cant optimize this further
- I reach exactly 231 HP, thus optimizing the damage I have to endure
- I never heal myself without Pendant of Health
- I convert Pendant of Health with exactly full health afterwards

I really dont know what to improve here anymore... everything is so tight and feels so right, its just one freaking 1 HP left :D I would really appreciate, if you could find the old solution, because I am stumped :D
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby shade_of_ox on Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:36 am

@Nurator - do you mind posting a full guide of your moves so I can take a look?
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby Nurator on Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:02 am

I will when I come back from work :)
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby The Avatar on Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:26 am

Nurator wrote:I will when I come back from work :)


Actually, this'd be great for me too. I have a solution that also gets it to one health, but doesn't fulfill conditions 3 or 6 which makes me wonder if either taking something from your solution and giving it to mine or giving something from my solution to yours will solve it. If not, then I'm just going to bump him down to 574 health. It won't problematize the berserk, as the new threshold will be 529, but it will be beatable. If it isn't already...
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby Nurator on Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:25 pm

Ok here it goes:

Spoiler: show
1. Take Shield, Fire Heart, Alchemists Scroll, Tri Sword and Bloody Sigil.
2. Use WHUPAZ, take HALPMEH, use once then convert. Take BYSSEPS
3. Explore one step and convert Bloody Sigil. Then do three attacks with activate BYSSEPS
4. Take and use Cracked Amulet. Take and use Keg O Mana
5. Cast BYSSEPS, attack once, cast BYSSEPS again and use a Mana Potion.
6. Convert Alchemists Scroll and take Vampiric Blade
7. 3 Attacks with activated BYSSEPS (Tri Sword has +4 now)
8. Use another Mana Potion, then 3 more attacks with BYSSEPS (Tri Sword is again +4)
9. Take the last mana potion and the pendant of health. Use Fire Heart (+55%)
10. 3 Attacks with activated BYSSEPS (Tri Sword is again +4)
11. Activate BYSSEPS and convert it, attack and the enemy has exactly 231 HP.
12. Take and use Keg O Health and drink a health potion
13. 4 Attacks (Tri Sword is +3), then one health potion
14. Again 4 Attacks (Tri Sword is +3), then one health potion
15. Use Fire Heart and convert Pendant of Health (36/36 health, Tri-Sword is +7)
16. Again 4 Attacks (Tri Sword is +3), convert Vampiric Blade and Shield, then one final attack to bring Horatio to 1 freaking HP


Are you sure that Berserk will then trigger at 529? Isnt it rounded against you like always? I also would love your steps, maybe I can think of something myself then :)
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby The Avatar on Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:10 am

Nurator wrote:Ok here it goes:

Spoiler: show
1. Take Shield, Fire Heart, Alchemists Scroll, Tri Sword and Bloody Sigil.
2. Use WHUPAZ, take HALPMEH, use once then convert. Take BYSSEPS
3. Explore one step and convert Bloody Sigil. Then do three attacks with activate BYSSEPS
4. Take and use Cracked Amulet. Take and use Keg O Mana
5. Cast BYSSEPS, attack once, cast BYSSEPS again and use a Mana Potion.
6. Convert Alchemists Scroll and take Vampiric Blade
7. 3 Attacks with activated BYSSEPS (Tri Sword has +4 now)
8. Use another Mana Potion, then 3 more attacks with BYSSEPS (Tri Sword is again +4)
9. Take the last mana potion and the pendant of health. Use Fire Heart (+55%)
10. 3 Attacks with activated BYSSEPS (Tri Sword is again +4)
11. Activate BYSSEPS and convert it, attack and the enemy has exactly 231 HP.
12. Take and use Keg O Health and drink a health potion
13. 4 Attacks (Tri Sword is +3), then one health potion
14. Again 4 Attacks (Tri Sword is +3), then one health potion
15. Use Fire Heart and convert Pendant of Health (36/36 health, Tri-Sword is +7)
16. Again 4 Attacks (Tri Sword is +3), convert Vampiric Blade and Shield, then one final attack to bring Horatio to 1 freaking HP


Are you sure that Berserk will then trigger at 529? Isnt it rounded against you like always? I also would love your steps, maybe I can think of something myself then :)


Actually, turns out are steps are virtually identical. For the record, this strategy does not only use BYSSEPS at +5 or better trisword, as your first hit at level 2 is +4 (hence my assuming we'd found different things). Also, for whatever reason I always end up at 35 after converting the pendant of health, but I assume that's a function of rounding being different based on Fire Heart click timing (i.e. clicking for +55% and +20% gives on more health than +60% and +15%). Looks like Horatio needs to go down by one health (assuming rounding works, which I believe it should as most numbers truncate in DD).
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