Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby Nurator on Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:26 am

Will BLUDTOPOWA trigger death protection? If it does, it would be pretty powerful...

Also for curious frigid Battlefield : Do I have to kill all four bosses directly after each other or two pairs of two?

@Avatar Did you see our discussion about the remaining puzzles? What do you think?
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby The Avatar on Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:52 am

Huh, I thought I posted a response to your solution of Family Matters, but it seems I must have started to write it and then moved on without finishing and posting. First, I'm probably going to leave Grudge Match as it is, simply because it is the easiest of the puzzles and because it's thematically on point. Family Matters, however, is a whole different kettle of fish. I'm seriously torn between modifying the puzzle to invalidate your more efficient solution, as the intended solution uses literally everything except the Pendant of Mana, or just trimming the puzzle. There's also a chance that I just throw out the current version altogether (except the map, because I quite like the map) and totally change up the provided tools and enemy stats. I suspect the eventual outcome will fall somewhere between options 1 and 3, with my forcing the intended solution (as it is a bit more complex and interesting than the one you found), but also simplifying the provided tools by removing the necessity for the might potion and the existence of the mana elixirs.

Oh, and for Curious Battlefield they must be all killed in succession, not just in pairs.
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby General_Milky on Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:52 am

Yeah, you already invalidated my solution in one of the first eastern patches. #saltybutnotsalty
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby srid on Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:16 am

I believe the Troll can be extremely powerful given the right situation, kinda like the Rat Monarch in Vicious Steel. Here it seems linked to being able to use self-cannon and having a lot of blackspace, since like most regen fighters the Troll can kill anything provided enough blackspace. The Shadow Heart makes him also capable of regen-fight with Burndayraz too and makes Apheelsick twice as effective indeed.

So overall I am not that worried unless we demonstrate that the Troll can roll over every single Vicious EE dungeon with VT or Curious on.

@shade_of_ox It's true that the Shadow Heart makes the Troll a much better spellcaster, but I am still wondering if losing the gods boons really is worth it. You should really try worshipping JJ with a Troll, the amount of piety you can get by reshrouding enemies is insane.
In my opinion the best item for the Troll is Fido, but obviously it cannot be used yet (coming soon, I promise)

Your use of Shadow Heart to get rid of several bosses through fireballs still makes me wonder if you wouldn't be better of with a pure spellcaster + Shadow Heart. Something like Wizard or Gnome Chemist. Obviously the Curious Labyrinth abuse would not work there, so you would have to find another Curious Dungeon where the boss can be killed quickly enough.

EDIT:
@Nurator I'm pretty sure that BLUDTOPOWA does not count for the Troll Death Protection. And if it does, it is most likely a bug.
It's funny because I considered that BLUDTOPOWA was an interesting glyph for the Troll, as he can create more blackspace out of thin air and regenerates quickly. But it's true that his blackspace is probably better spent in other ways.
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby shade_of_ox on Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:27 am

I already cleared VT Scrooge with a run of the mill Paladin. I'm interested if the Troll can do it at all, and from the looks of it, it can. Curious Labyrinth seems optimal for Troll, for a pure caster probably something like Northern Desert is better.
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby Nurator on Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:21 pm

The Avatar wrote:Huh, I thought I posted a response to your solution of Family Matters, but it seems I must have started to write it and then moved on without finishing and posting. First, I'm probably going to leave Grudge Match as it is, simply because it is the easiest of the puzzles and because it's thematically on point. Family Matters, however, is a whole different kettle of fish. I'm seriously torn between modifying the puzzle to invalidate your more efficient solution, as the intended solution uses literally everything except the Pendant of Mana, or just trimming the puzzle. There's also a chance that I just throw out the current version altogether (except the map, because I quite like the map) and totally change up the provided tools and enemy stats. I suspect the eventual outcome will fall somewhere between options 1 and 3, with my forcing the intended solution (as it is a bit more complex and interesting than the one you found), but also simplifying the provided tools by removing the necessity for the might potion and the existence of the mana elixirs.

Oh, and for Curious Battlefield they must be all killed in succession, not just in pairs.


To the puzzle:
I really have to think about Grudge Match, because I cant figure it out right now and everyone is saying how easy it is :D Family Matters is also thematically on point and the layout is nice, however now I am sad that my well crafted strategy is invalidated :D But I will try again with the new version to break it :P Looking forward to it :)

To Curious Battlefield:
Nevermind, I used Orb of Zot and oneshot every boss (GG for magic attack against the 75% resist), that was funny :D

To the troll:
I just noticed that the best enemy to fight is one where you can exactly survive one hit with 6 tiles, so you attack him once and then again for the DP, effectively having used 4 tiles for 2 attacks, which is INSANE. Or you regenfight two enemies at the same time, one with massive damage and one where you survive with 6 tiles... the possibilities are endless
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby shade_of_ox on Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:05 pm

Nurator wrote:Nevermind, I used Orb of Zot and oneshot every boss (GG for magic attack against the 75% resist), that was funny :D

Ahhhh, I always forget that item exists. I wish it weren't so rare and expensive.

What you said is pretty much the reason Troll is so strong with APHEELSIK. APHEELSIK gives such a huge poison output at higher levels that you can easily get away with poison-fighting more than one enemy at a time.
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby Nurator on Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:06 am

I prep it fairly often :) It gives +5 health and +3 mana, which is awesome for the early game. Also combined with elite items and translocation scroll, you have a near guarenteed Yendor, but no inventory problems at the boss fight :)
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby shade_of_ox on Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:51 pm

Well, this sucks.
http://prntscr.com/lfkycg
Got Lord Gobb down to around 200 HP this time. My subdungeon was Lernutrix, which is quite literally the worst thing I could have possibly gotten. Gotta keep trying...
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Re: Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

Postby shade_of_ox on Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:34 pm

Aaand... victory!
http://prntscr.com/lflt14
@srid - since you asked, I recorded this run.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf8xvIF2TZU

Again, the strategy here involves scumming for APHEELSIK and WEYTWUT. That is pretty aggressive scumming, and one of the reasons I picked Shadow Heart was because I really didn't want to have to scum for a favorable god combo (Jehora or Binlor -> Dracul) on top of those. I lucked out with getting both Whurrgarbl AND Venom Dagger, but if I'd gotten some high conversion value shop items instead I maybe could have hit 20 HP/tile regenerated.

The most room for improvement I have with this character is figuring out when to time his conversions.
As Nurator said, the Troll is at his strongest when fighting an enemy who deals as much damage as the Troll regenerates in 6 tiles. Since most VT bosses do 120 damage, that means you want 20 health per tile, which is not feasible. However, if you go up to 7 tiles (which is more efficient than hitting other enemies to give you extra tiles and only hitting a boss with your DP) you only need 17 HP per tile - I only figured this out towards the end of the run and kept APHEELSIK for half of the fight with Frank, where it was giving me no value whatsoever. I should also have converted Venom Dagger at this time; though it would not have helped me reach the regen threshold I mentioned earlier, it would have allowed me to squeeze out a couple of extra tiles from hitting enemies.

Also, I sometimes forgot to spend my health on low-level monsters before using my DP with the self-cannon, and in general am not very good at remembering to make the most use out of Troll Brain. With WEYTWUT especially, what you want to do is position the enemies you're hitting to shroud tiles close to the direction you are exploring in, so that you don't waste your shrouded tiles.

Aside from that, that's two big challenges that I've completed with the Troll, the other being Curious Naga City. I would say he's actually one of the best-designed classes in the game. Most of the other monster classes are either not particularly different from normal classes (Half-Dragon) or have severe handicaps that limit how you can play them (Rat, Vampire). Troll is a perfect middle ground because it HAS a handicap and has a very technical playstyle, but at the same time can be played in more ways than almost any other character while remaining "optimal". At the same time, there is no god that is obviously the best for Troll, the way there is for Gorgon and Rat (almost always Binlor). Aside from TT, Troll also doesn't have any gods that are completely useless to him the way Rat does. Troll's playstyle is simlar to Gorgon as he is also a regen fighter, but far more technical and without the same safety net that Death Gaze gives. So all in all, Troll is my new favorite class!
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