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QCF Design Community • View topic - Complicated Tasks, Pt 6 Help!


Complicated Tasks, Pt 6 Help!

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Re: Complicated Tasks, Pt 6 Help!

Postby Gorgon on Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:52 pm

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Re: Complicated Tasks, Pt 6 Help!

Postby TigerKnee on Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:18 pm

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Re: Complicated Tasks, Pt 6 Help!

Postby Lujo on Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:25 pm

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Re: Complicated Tasks, Pt 6 Help!

Postby The Avatar on Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:36 pm

I disagree with this, it is really just cause they added elites like kegs of mana which send Bllodmages through the roof. Thieves are also only great because of kegs in fact, most classes are not gamebreaking, compared to the difficulty of most hard content. They just seem gamebreaking because they are making you complete "gamebreaking" levels with non-"gamebreaking" classes. Things like magma mines are kind of hard (as they should be) with paladin etc, but as soon as you have to beat it with a priest, the paladin is all of a sudden "gamebreaking" class just because things are harder with a priest. The problem is not that the classes are gamebreaking, it is just that the others aren't up to scratch. Funny thing is, most hard dungeons fall under one main flaw. Too high stats. The problem with high damage and hp is it needs a "lasting" mechanic to beat. This means you need resistances, poison, HALPMEH, CYDSTEPP, or some other form of death protection. The problem is some classes don't have this (Fighter). All of a sudden, everything else is "gamebreaking" just because they can't last. Another thing is, priests aren't very bad, it is just because they are taking away your "lasting" mechanic and forcing you to luckily find one mid-dungeon.
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Re: Complicated Tasks, Pt 6 Help!

Postby Lujo on Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:01 pm

Then it's a design decision - either the game baseline is the thief, which means classes that don't break the "rules" have no reason for being in the game (as they can't compete except some in very specific situations), or the baseline is the fighter, which then means the thief and bloodmage are bloody broken and need a rework.

A compromise would be to move the offending classes into their proper tiers, with possible reworks, but guys who need no scumming to get more worth out of powerfull items like potions (and just put all the stuff that combos off potions on paper and compare it with anything else) shouldn't be available right from the start. Guys who can go inf mana shouldn't be available period, make transmuter based of IMAWAL or something, it was a fun idea, but I really see no way to balance him properly.
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Re: Complicated Tasks, Pt 6 Help!

Postby pRaz on Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:06 pm

I honestly don't want things to be "balanced" in a way that lets you do any task with any class with a similar level of difficulty across the board. Even though this isn't a straight-up roguelike, one of the traditions of roguelikes that this game does well with is having a very wide variety of approaches that require thought and reasoning.
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Re: Complicated Tasks, Pt 6 Help!

Postby The Avatar on Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:07 pm

@Lujo:Well, now we seem to have come to a consensus. If the thief is the baseline, the game is mostly balanced, with a few weakling lagging behind. If the fighter is the baseline, than 90% of all the classes are overpowered. (And yes, I did just make 90 up). I agree that the transmuter needs a rework, but they are probably going to put out all the content before releasing changed versions of classes. (Unless it is necessary, like the current Vampire)

@pRaz: Yes, but it should be the dungeon that makes it particularly hard for that class, not the fact that the class sucks. I mean, if the monk didn't suck, slime pits would still be hard, because debuffs are his weakness. The crypt is harder for the assassin, not because he sucks, but because he isn't as good with undead.
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Re: Complicated Tasks, Pt 6 Help!

Postby Lujo on Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:20 pm

Wether it's the 90% is a very important question, although I do agree a major question has ben put up (in other words, we do have a sort of consensus).

If the fighter is the baseline, then certain classes and concepts need reshuffling in the tier status, or reworks, which would then allow for less insanely difficult content.

If the thief is the baseline, then most classes have nothing to do in the game outisde very specific missions and flavour.

Sorry if it looks biased, it is, but so was oyur argument, altghough we generally agree that it's not clear what the devs want, and thats behing all this. And it is an issue.
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Re: Complicated Tasks, Pt 6 Help!

Postby The Avatar on Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:58 pm

I'm for the thief as the baseline, and buff all subpar classes, instead of nerfing all classes, and making the game nigh impossible just because all classes suck now. I will suggest as a hybrid solution: nerfing the thief and then making him the baseline. Something like 30% to each per potion (Or even 25%) instead of 40 each, and then raise the weak classes and lower the strong ones.

Also, to remove cheap exploits, like rogue CYDSTEPP, you should make the rogue have something like this in patch notes: Due to his a major magical disturbance, glyphs have suddenly become much harder to use! While this is a pointless announcement to most of us heros, our less constituent rogues now have to use their very life energy to cast spells! (Rogues must 1 hp per level in addition to the glyph cost)

While this won't effect most glyphs, using CYDSTEPP with less than 1 hp per level will prevent you from using it. It also makes HALPMEH 2/3s effective. To offset this loss, because now rogues will mostly suck, they only have -3 hp per level.
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Re: Complicated Tasks, Pt 6 Help!

Postby Lujo on Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:46 am

Yes, I'd sign that, really.

I don't mind the Fighter not being baseline (he's quite bland really), but I do mind having he current Thief as baseling as he is quite too strong (just not flashy, obviously strong). What you suggest is basicaly what i'd suggest.

That's the problem I've got with a couple of classes, they're so good at what they do that they limit design space. The thief, for examle, as it is too good of a generalist, so good in fact that hes better than most specialized classes at what they are ment to be best at. I'm glad we HAVE reached a consensus :)
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