Complicated Tasks, Pt 6 Help!

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Re: Complicated Tasks, Pt 6 Help!

Postby The Avatar on Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:09 pm

So who needs to change? Wizard, monk, vampire, transmuter, Fighter (Maybe), priest, and lower... Warlord (Reduce bonuses to 20%)? Bloodmage (Reduce potions to 80% but lower damage taken from them to 5 per level)?
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Re: Complicated Tasks, Pt 6 Help!

Postby Lujo on Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:04 pm

That would be about it, to clarify taking both perspectives into prespective (lol):

Assuming the thief's "i can make potions even more powerfull" issues are at least tweaked, ofc. (I'd personally make the current tinker a base class, call him the thief and bring shops into the game earlier, rename the current thief "the alchemist" or "the drug dealer" and make him unlockable by a vicious dungeon comleted run or something, but hey...)

Fighter and Priest are too bland, weird and narrow, the last especially if the thief is the baseline. Furthermore the fighters signature ability is also Tiki Tooki's signature ability (and he's the god of rogues, wtf).

The Priest is even weirder, I've always had to stretch my imagination to see him as a priest, really, and he has no synergy with gods (and he feels more like a paladin than the paladin does, and the paladin feels more like a priest). I'd personally reshuffle their abilities somehow, but the priest skillset is way below the curve as 2 of his abilities revolve around HP (infinitely less usefull and more plentifull by design than MP), and the third is situational. If the dev's want to make him and "INTRO" character, they should link him to gods somehow, since there is no class that really introduces players to them.

* Good way to do it would be to have him start with some piety plus a way to gain piety, make the pactmaker available from the start and scouted (maybe even spawned) for him, and lump his bonus hp and hp potion abuse skills into one ability.

Vampire i don't really care about, monster classes seem like cute gimmicks to me, but I could never really see the point of something that breaks the race/class mold. I don't have any opinions on him.

The wizard... Well, I was always really satisfied with how the magic building progression went from "balanced pure spellcaster" - "slightly stronger spellcaster generalist" - "wtfbbq7kindsofbroken cheatcode". With fireball being a possible prep, the wizard kind of lost his place compared to the Sorcerer (who needed to look for a dmg spell in the alpha, with no scouting, and so did Bloodmage). Not sure what to do really, but replacing his -att debuff with any sort of usefull ability would be good.

The Monk - I love him because i've used him and abused him all over the place, but i'm not sure a high resist char can be balanced at all, as it is a bigger advantage than it looks (he was the first thing I cleared everything in alha with, after i did it with the thief). I'd personally do my best to try to rework him into a pissedorff/wheytwut character, we don't have one, and it could be interesting. Also that way, when designing maps, and gauging monster HP and dmg, you don't have to take into account people walking in there with a char that has almost boss like resists.

The Transmuter - scrap him, admit defeat, whatever, balancing a guy who can turn walls to mana, and just ignore exploration space as a resource thats too much time and effort however you build his skillset. Balancing him means making every map take him into account, and that is just unmanagable. He beats GaanTelet. Just... no. Rework him into a proper transmuter, something around IMAWAL, as he is he is more of a miner right now...

Warlord - I haven't played him much, not really sure about it. Anything that abuses cydstep is silly the way I see it, and having free cydsteps off taurog be the default endgame for melle classes... I mean, any taurog char is warlord, which is why i never play him - taurog's cydstepps are ussualy enough and they let you ignore mana as a resource. He feels underpowered to me, as he is like a worse berserker that has to skip taurog in order to keep track of an entire resource just to be able to cast cydstep. Also, the reason Fighter's Pit Dog ability looks bad is because Taurog and the Glyph give it on a repeatable basis, if that wasn't so the fighter would have a clear and distinct advantage, and the game wouldn't have to take into account melle classes just ignoring hp as a resource every time they find a cydstepp on a stick.

*also, the cydstepp glyph in and off itself is possibly the major reason it's not obvious how broken the current thief is. What good is exploiting potions in obscene ways, when hp as a resource can easily become irrelevant to anyone who can abuse cydstep? Somthing to be considered.

Bloodmage - Anything that can get full mana of one potion is just wrong. It's fun in a powergaming way, and all that, but the way he is now obsoletes anything that intends to use a fireball, and he would be obsoleted by anything you could make that is better than him. Tweak, rework, something (although I do like him as a concept)
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Re: Complicated Tasks, Pt 6 Help!

Postby Gorgon on Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:40 pm

Doing what The Avatar suggested for thieves (30% HP/MP for potions) and bloodmages (80% MP and -5 HP per mana potion) would be enough. I'm quite satisfied with the current Wizard

* Good way to do it would be to have him start with some piety plus a way to gain piety, make the pactmaker available from the start and scouted (maybe even spawned) for him, and lump his bonus hp and hp potion abuse skills into one ability.


They could just replace his "Good golly" ability with "gets double piety, but loses double piety".

The Transmuter - scrap him, admit defeat, whatever, balancing a guy who can turn walls to mana, and just ignore exploration space as a resource thats too much time and effort however you build his skillset. Balancing him means making every map take him into account, and that is just unmanagable. He beats GaanTelet. Just... no. Rework him into a proper transmuter, something around IMAWAL, as he is he is more of a miner right now...


They could either make him something similar to what he was in alpha or balance him around IMAWAL (I like this idea).

The Monk - I love him because i've used him and abused him all over the place, but i'm not sure a high resist char can be balanced at all, as it is a bigger advantage than it looks (he was the first thing I cleared everything in alha with, after i did it with the thief). I'd personally do my best to try to rework him into a pissedorff/wheytwut character, we don't have one, and it could be interesting. Also that way, when designing maps, and gauging monster HP and dmg, you don't have to take into account people walking in there with a char that has almost boss like resists.


Just remove his -damage penalty from "hand to hand" and make him unable to get extra damage from items and damage boosters.
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Re: Complicated Tasks, Pt 6 Help!

Postby q 3 on Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:23 pm

My perspective is probably biased by being a veteran player (right? maybe? I don't know. Whatever.) and somewhat obsessed with purist runs (I guess I just don't like the idea of preparations - they're so utterly inconsistent with the Macgyver style of playing promoted by the alpha version, and for me with just about any class in just about any non-vicious dungeon they're equivalent to cheat codes). That said, I don't see the Thief as being any more powerful than the Tinker - in fact, in many circumstances I think the Tinker is far stronger. Thieves suffer from a terrible early game, with their main advantage being useless until you're ready to start using potions and their other traits providing only a marginal advantage, and they also suffer from being almost completely locked out of Glowing Guardian (currently the best all-around deity by far) and have a hard time following Dracul as well (far weaker after losing Blood Power, but still a strong candidate for second best). Tinkers, on the other hand, are most definitely worthy of the title Macgyver (but should still have their stair sense replaced with shop sense to reduce scumming and alleviate random wandering).

Bloodmages suffer from overspecialization even more than Wizards do, in my experience; they are completely locked out of Glowing Guardian unless they're suicidal, and Earthmother as well, and with the loss of Blood Power their favored deity doesn't have all that much to offer in most circumstances. Often when playing one I'd much prefer to have normal mana potions because the health penalty is just too much trouble to deal with. They also really struggle if they're cut off from their blood pools, which happens in nearly every vicious dungeon.

In comparison, Wizards are actually quite the powerhouse once you realize that fireballs are not their forte, HALPMEH is, and their offense penalty is relatively easily overcome (and now that they no longer suffer from a nearly all-glyph inventory, indeed having the most inventory space of any class other than Tinkers, they make even better warriors than ever); they can also turn PISORF into a game breaking ability in a way that no other class can do (other than Transmuters, who I have decided to pretend don't exist). If I were to make any changes to them, it would be replacing their extra BURNDAYRAZ glyph with either PISORF or a random third tier glyph, because that's what I'm usually scumming for.
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Re: Complicated Tasks, Pt 6 Help!

Postby Gorgon on Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:16 pm

q 3 wrote:Bloodmages suffer from overspecialization


There is always JJ, he is actually the only god who benefits mages (other than Mystera, but I really don't see a reason to worship her). You can see my strategy page on the wiki.
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Re: Complicated Tasks, Pt 6 Help!

Postby The Avatar on Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:53 pm

How about giving wizards +1 fireball damage instead of -1 mp cost, cause that screams HALPMEH.
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Re: Complicated Tasks, Pt 6 Help!

Postby TigerKnee on Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:57 pm

That kind of makes them a lot more one dimensional though.

My personal suggestion that I made several times in the past would be "-2 MP for only glyphs costing more than 5MP" but that might be a bit more complicated for newbies.
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Re: Complicated Tasks, Pt 6 Help!

Postby The Avatar on Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:06 pm

That sounds good, actually!
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Re: Complicated Tasks, Pt 6 Help!

Postby q 3 on Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:02 am

The problem with -2 cost for 5+ MP glyphs is that, other than BURNDAYRAZ, the only other high MP cost glyphs that directly and reliably increase the damage you can do are CYDSTEPP, which Wizards don't particularly like because of their reduced attack power, and APHEELSIK, which Wizards generally only like if they can also find BURNDAYRAZ - which, incidentally, would become the go-to strategy for Wizards if they had such an ability (it already is a pretty good strategy, but 4 MP fireballs and 5 MP poison, plus BLUDTOPOWA and a Fire Heart, would be enough to kill most bosses at level 1). Not to mention that those are both tier 3 glyphs that tend to require scumming if you want to rely on them as the centerpiece of your strategy. The loss of a bonus to using PISORF, BICEPS, and GETINDARE (three solid glyphs for Wizards right now) would make Wizards even more of a fireball-only class.
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Re: Complicated Tasks, Pt 6 Help!

Postby The Avatar on Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:04 am

Hmm... I suppose... What to do...

Remove the -1 mp cost and add 2 extra glyphs spawn?
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