Strategy Thread for talking about Strategies

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Re: Strategy Thread for talking about Strategies

Postby gjaustin on Tue May 08, 2012 8:03 pm

Joist wrote:Do you mean attack bonus? Why would that make a difference, I thought the death gaze extra attack was a complete attack not just base attack.

I used the term attack multiplier, since it would need to include the base 100% to make the equation work. Attack Multiplier is 100% + attack bonus.

As for Death Gaze, I'm 95% sure it works based off of base attack. Which is why I've been pushing for Gorgons to get a slight increase to base attack to offset their massive attack bonus penalty, rather than just reducing the penalty.


Darvin wrote:The first rule of WHUPAZ is to never, ever publicly state what it does.

To provide explanation, the rule is because we're all convinced that the Devs don't actually know what it does. Because if they did, they'd nerf it.

Of course, they have nerfed it. So either someone broke the rule or whatever they thought it did was also overpowered. So we still need to follow the rule in case it was the latter.
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Re: Strategy Thread for talking about Strategies

Postby Blovski on Tue May 08, 2012 9:23 pm

*facepalm* hang on, I get it now, did not understand the gorgon attack because I am a moron.
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Re: Strategy Thread for talking about Strategies

Postby Malow on Tue May 08, 2012 9:26 pm

Ahh thanks for Whupaz explanation, I'll make sure I'll follow it :P

Joist: I already unlocked it, just didn't know what was that special rule about Whupaz! :P
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Re: Strategy Thread for talking about Strategies

Postby Joist on Tue May 08, 2012 11:13 pm

gjaustin wrote:
Joist wrote:Do you mean attack bonus? Why would that make a difference, I thought the death gaze extra attack was a complete attack not just base attack.

I used the term attack multiplier, since it would need to include the base 100% to make the equation work. Attack Multiplier is 100% + attack bonus.

As for Death Gaze, I'm 95% sure it works based off of base attack. Which is why I've been pushing for Gorgons to get a slight increase to base attack to offset their massive attack bonus penalty, rather than just reducing the penalty.


That's not the formula if that's true though. It'd be

effective health = health - Math.ceiling((deathgaze threshold * health) / (total damage + base damage)) * base damage

Also I agree, I've always found that it is necessary to prep tri-sword if you want her to do good.
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Re: Strategy Thread for talking about Strategies

Postby gjaustin on Wed May 09, 2012 5:30 pm

Joist wrote:
gjaustin wrote:
Joist wrote:Do you mean attack bonus? Why would that make a difference, I thought the death gaze extra attack was a complete attack not just base attack.

I used the term attack multiplier, since it would need to include the base 100% to make the equation work. Attack Multiplier is 100% + attack bonus.

As for Death Gaze, I'm 95% sure it works based off of base attack. Which is why I've been pushing for Gorgons to get a slight increase to base attack to offset their massive attack bonus penalty, rather than just reducing the penalty.


That's not the formula if that's true though. It'd be

effective health = health - Math.ceiling((deathgaze threshold * health) / (total damage + base damage)) * base damage

Also I agree, I've always found that it is necessary to prep tri-sword if you want her to do good.


There is a minor error in my equation, but let's simplify yours so that it's clear. Our equations are almost exactly the same.

effective health = health - Math.ceiling((deathgaze threshold * health) / (total damage + base damage)) * base damage

Let's take out the rounding since we can round when we're done
effective health = health - ((deathgaze threshold * health) / (total damage + base damage)) * base damage

Now let's factor out health
effective health = health * (1 - ((deathgaze threshold / (total damage + base damage)) * base damage))

Total damage = base damage * attack multiplier
effective health = health * (1 - ((deathgaze threshold / (base damage * attack multiplier + base damage)) * base damage))

Now to factor out base damage from that denominator
effective health = health * (1 - ((deathgaze threshold / (base damage * (1 + attack multiplier)) * base damage))

And completely get rid of base damage since it's actually irrelevant
effective health = health * (1 - (deathgaze threshold / (1 + attack multiplier))

So my error was that I was doubling the effect of the attack multiplier in my equation.
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Re: Strategy Thread for talking about Strategies

Postby dislekcia on Wed May 09, 2012 11:44 pm

gjaustin wrote:There is a minor error in my equation, but let's simplify yours so that it's clear. Our equations are almost exactly the same.

effective health = health - Math.ceiling((deathgaze threshold * health) / (total damage + base damage)) * base damage

Let's take out the rounding since we can round when we're done
effective health = health - ((deathgaze threshold * health) / (total damage + base damage)) * base damage

Now let's factor out health
effective health = health * (1 - ((deathgaze threshold / (total damage + base damage)) * base damage))

Total damage = base damage * attack multiplier
effective health = health * (1 - ((deathgaze threshold / (base damage * attack multiplier + base damage)) * base damage))

Now to factor out base damage from that denominator
effective health = health * (1 - ((deathgaze threshold / (base damage * (1 + attack multiplier)) * base damage))

And completely get rid of base damage since it's actually irrelevant
effective health = health * (1 - (deathgaze threshold / (1 + attack multiplier))

So my error was that I was doubling the effect of the attack multiplier in my equation.


Wat?

Death-gaze isn't nearly that complicated.
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Re: Strategy Thread for talking about Strategies

Postby Darvin on Wed May 09, 2012 11:55 pm

We're DD players. We make things complicated, even when they shouldn't be.
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Re: Strategy Thread for talking about Strategies

Postby Joist on Thu May 10, 2012 12:00 am

gjaustin wrote:There is a minor error in my equation, but let's simplify yours so that it's clear. Our equations are almost exactly the same.

effective health = health - Math.ceiling((deathgaze threshold * health) / (total damage + base damage)) * base damage

Let's take out the rounding since we can round when we're done
effective health = health - ((deathgaze threshold * health) / (total damage + base damage)) * base damage

Now let's factor out health
effective health = health * (1 - ((deathgaze threshold / (total damage + base damage)) * base damage))

Total damage = base damage * attack multiplier
effective health = health * (1 - ((deathgaze threshold / (base damage * attack multiplier + base damage)) * base damage))

Now to factor out base damage from that denominator
effective health = health * (1 - ((deathgaze threshold / (base damage * (1 + attack multiplier)) * base damage))

And completely get rid of base damage since it's actually irrelevant
effective health = health * (1 - (deathgaze threshold / (1 + attack multiplier))

So my error was that I was doubling the effect of the attack multiplier in my equation.


I didn't realise it would simplify down to basically your equation. There is a loss in accuracy though because you are removing Math.ceiling to factorise health out. You need to ceiling the result because you can only attack in integer amounts (you can't do 1.24 attaks :lol: ).

Probably yours is better for general use but I'd write "1 + attack multiplier" as "2 + attack bonus" so it's easier to translate from the in game numbers.

@dislekcia: We know we're just playing with numbers to see how Death Gaze stacks up against WHUPAZ.

Basically at 0% attack bonus (which is surprisingly realistic for a gorgon) you half your death gaze percentage and that's the % it'd do as a micro-whupaz. Example, at 10% death gaze it acts like a 5% whupaz.

@Darvin: Algorithms are fun.
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Re: Strategy Thread for talking about Strategies

Postby gjaustin on Thu May 10, 2012 12:56 am

dislekcia wrote:
gjaustin wrote:There is a minor error in my equation, but let's simplify yours so that it's clear. Our equations are almost exactly the same.

effective health = health - Math.ceiling((deathgaze threshold * health) / (total damage + base damage)) * base damage

Let's take out the rounding since we can round when we're done
effective health = health - ((deathgaze threshold * health) / (total damage + base damage)) * base damage

Now let's factor out health
effective health = health * (1 - ((deathgaze threshold / (total damage + base damage)) * base damage))

Total damage = base damage * attack multiplier
effective health = health * (1 - ((deathgaze threshold / (base damage * attack multiplier + base damage)) * base damage))

Now to factor out base damage from that denominator
effective health = health * (1 - ((deathgaze threshold / (base damage * (1 + attack multiplier)) * base damage))

And completely get rid of base damage since it's actually irrelevant
effective health = health * (1 - (deathgaze threshold / (1 + attack multiplier))

So my error was that I was doubling the effect of the attack multiplier in my equation.


Wat?

Death-gaze isn't nearly that complicated.


Just wait until I whip out the Calculus to determine how much Effective Health a monster gains from having Weakening!

And there is a reason I didn't include the equation in my first post :)
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Re: Strategy Thread for talking about Strategies

Postby Joist on Thu May 10, 2012 1:07 am

Get yo' arithmetic progression on, son!
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