Subdungeoneering

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Re: Subdungeoneering

Postby Nandrew on Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:36 pm

Oh, hah, also just realised that Pen the Mage Dragon is supposed to be partially concealed now, but the code I wrote was all "reveal" events, so I got it the wrong way around, sorry. ;_; Next week, I promise.
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Re: Subdungeoneering

Postby Lujo on Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:30 pm

Well if there is need (and I say that there is) for more walled off subdungeons, Lekon's one - a "free piety" subdungeon - could be one, and a very nice one.

Now, wether it should be goats, or random spawn shared withe the main dungeon (0 XP ofc) is a different matter, but if anything should be added to the walled off ones, piety should.
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Re: Subdungeoneering

Postby The Avatar on Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:45 pm

Yeah, I'd say change it to curse.
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Re: Subdungeoneering

Postby Sidestepper on Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:39 pm

I don't know. I think that the walled in dungeons are hard enough to find and access as is. I don't think that they should be double-edged or have buy-in costs. Knocking down 14 billions walls searching for them IS the buy-in cost. If Lekon becomes a walled in dungeon, it should just be free piety, not tons of mana burn/curse and piety.

And yes, I am still seeing the PISORF troll. I thought it was weird that there were two PISORF dispensing dungeons.

Is Cha'Dylan supposed to drop anything? I got nothing when he died. There isn't much to leverage here.

I've also noticed that Contemplate the Waters is now always present in the Western Forest, and that the Western Forest always has two dungeons. Not sure if that was intentional, but I kind of like it. Buy-in dungeons are way less aggravating when you know that they are there and can plan around it.

Also, someone needs to register the Packmaster handle and buy an EE package.

Also, also, the bank ledger is becoming one of my favorite preps. It's incredible for characters that need black space more than they need revealed resources (Bloodmage and Assassin).
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Re: Subdungeoneering

Postby Darvin on Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:55 pm

I hope you're not commenting on a recent event, that subdungeon was supposed to be replaced by Marwood's Paan Labyrinth this week. Will doublecheck either way.

Given that subdungeons are randomly chosen from a fairly large pool, it's very easy for us to fail to notice when one is taken out of circulation.

No, it hasn't. :P We've been steadily adding compensation buffs to no-explore dungeons and also take care to provide an average of more explore-focused dungeons in new packs.

I think his point is that no-explore subdungeons are becoming more prevelant, even if the reward they give is more reasonable. Explorable subdungeons tend to be more predictable since even before you have located them you know there's some exploration resources there.

There's also a replacement subdungeon in the North for the "mysterious potion" set piece, which I already imagine will need a buff and more interesting things

Well, it'd be pretty hard to be worse than the mysterious potion, so no matter how bad it may be it's still an improvement.

I don't mind replacing Mana Burn with Curse, though if it's to be eligible for Secret status I think it would probably need a buff of some other kind just to help even that out.

How about a desecration-effect when you touch the altar; bonus piety and indulgences. That makes the subdungeon a little less dependent on the top-floor goat population, and a little more potent overall. If mana burn got swapped out for curse, then that would soften it up for most classes.
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Re: Subdungeoneering

Postby harfatum on Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:36 pm

Darvin wrote:
I don't mind replacing Mana Burn with Curse, though if it's to be eligible for Secret status I think it would probably need a buff of some other kind just to help even that out.

How about a desecration-effect when you touch the altar; bonus piety and indulgences. That makes the subdungeon a little less dependent on the top-floor goat population, and a little more potent overall. If mana burn got swapped out for curse, then that would soften it up for most classes.

I like the pseudo-desecration thing. Single-subdungeon "gods" like Packmaster are a potentially hilarious idea. This one could be something like Pacifister, god of non-retaliation.
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Re: Subdungeoneering

Postby Lujo on Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:11 pm

Darvin mentioned something I'd love to get - indulgences. Very little ways to get them in game, very fun mechanic. Not necessarily a subdungeon thing, but I wouldn't mind an indulgence granting subdungeon, or item, or anything, really...
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Re: Subdungeoneering

Postby The Avatar on Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:20 pm

I think I found the mysterious potion replacement. The potion is flipped, and now it's guarded by a level 7 berserker.


I'm also very interested in the possibility of sub-gods (subdungeon gods). Things like Glitterfinger (piety to gold), Packmaster (piety to small items or compression scrolls), maybe some alchemist/potion god, etc. Actually, if this was earlier in the beta we could get a whole Demi-god/deity system. Your god gives you piety for boons, while your deity lets you use extra piety to emphasize some piece of your character (like gold, potions, etc.) Basically, you broaden and divvy up the Pactmaker. Every game guarentees 3 altars and a deity, and maybe change extra altar to extra deity.

Actually, as long as we're talking about the religious system, you should be able to renounce your god if you have 50+ piety. Like converting to no one. It would probably have to reset piety to 0.
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Re: Subdungeoneering

Postby Fran on Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:17 pm

The Avatar wrote:I'm also very interested in the possibility of sub-gods (subdungeon gods). Things like Glitterfinger (piety to gold), Packmaster (piety to small items or compression scrolls), maybe some alchemist/potion god, etc. Actually, if this was earlier in the beta we could get a whole Demi-god/deity system. Your god gives you piety for boons, while your deity lets you use extra piety to emphasize some piece of your character (like gold, potions, etc.) Basically, you broaden and divvy up the Pactmaker. Every game guarentees 3 altars and a deity, and maybe change extra altar to extra deity.

Actually, as long as we're talking about the religious system, you should be able to renounce your god if you have 50+ piety. Like converting to no one. It would probably have to reset piety to 0.


Packmaster approves of this.
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Re: Subdungeoneering

Postby Nandrew on Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:01 am

Sidestepper wrote:I've also noticed that Contemplate the Waters is now always present in the Western Forest, and that the Western Forest always has two dungeons. Not sure if that was intentional, but I kind of like it. Buy-in dungeons are way less aggravating when you know that they are there and can plan around it.


I'm kinda wondering how that happened. Don't think it's intentional. :P

Darvin wrote:Given that subdungeons are randomly chosen from a fairly large pool, it's very easy for us to fail to notice when one is taken out of circulation.


Yeah, I'm hoping that Sidestepper didn't actually stumble into it over the weekend ... though I've checked it now and it doesn't seem to be in the pool code-side anymore. So no worries, y'all shouldn't find it. :)

I think his point is that no-explore subdungeons are becoming more prevelant, even if the reward they give is more reasonable. Explorable subdungeons tend to be more predictable since even before you have located them you know there's some exploration resources there.


Makes sense in that regard, yeah, though we want subdungeons to be more spontaneous experiences overall. Spontaneous but fair. So just pulling up the socks on ones which are objectively much weaker overall.

How about a desecration-effect when you touch the altar; bonus piety and indulgences. That makes the subdungeon a little less dependent on the top-floor goat population, and a little more potent overall. If mana burn got swapped out for curse, then that would soften it up for most classes.


I'll give this one some thought.

Lujo wrote:Darvin mentioned something I'd love to get - indulgences. Very little ways to get them in game, very fun mechanic. Not necessarily a subdungeon thing, but I wouldn't mind an indulgence granting subdungeon, or item, or anything, really...


That's definitely an underexplored reward area, yeah.

The Avatar wrote:I think I found the mysterious potion replacement. The potion is flipped, and now it's guarded by a level 7 berserker.


Nah, not flipped, it's objectively more powerful. I just think that the berserker guardian may make the increased reward slightly muted right now.
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