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QCF Design Community • View topic - Foo Strats (Or Newbie Crutches?)


Foo Strats (Or Newbie Crutches?)

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Foo Strats (Or Newbie Crutches?)

Postby Lujo on Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:47 am

I almost got pwned by Shifty Brickwork!
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Re: Foo Strats (Or Newbie Crutches?)

Postby Gavster on Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:11 pm

This is what happens when you play too much DD folks. :D
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Re: Foo Strats (Or Newbie Crutches?)

Postby q 3 on Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:42 pm

It's funny, if I were to make my own list there would be almost no overlap. Mostly because I hate having to prep anything, to be sure, but some stuff just doesn't seem all that overpowering to me.

For example, in my experience, Dracul is nearly impossible to get piety with, and way too easy to piss off); he's an excellent 2nd deity for late conversion and bloodpool exploitation, but in most dungeons if my deity roster is, say, Binlor, Pactmaker, and Dracul, I'm not going to go "yay, Dracul!" I'm probably just going to restart.

I've never really understood the mystique about Whupaz. Yes, it's helpful. Is it worth prepping (since you're limited to 5 potions and there are many other potent potables to choose from) and keeping in your inventory for the entire dungeon? Eh. Take a look at your "total damage" stat after a successful run, especially in a vicious dungeon, and then consider that (outside of one particular dungeon) Whupaz likely amounts to less than 5% of it. And that's all it does.

Same thing with "the hack" - until you mentioned undead, I honestly had no idea what anyone meant by it. (After all, everyone knows the real secret to beating Naga City is fireball spam.) I'll go for it with an Assassin, since I'm probably cheesing that particular deity anyway, but for anyone else it's a tough sell - it costs a lot of piety from a god who is fairly stingy with piety at low levels, and then you basically have to convert out immediately lest that same deity utterly screw you over for using his own boon.

~

Anyway, enough whining, here are a couple other items for consideration:

Glowing Guardian. At level 1, the instant you find a GG altar you can boost your max HP by 12 (+5 starting piety and +1 from a sparkle). With a couple of glyph conversions and/or the rest of his sparkles you can boost your max HP by another ~20. Gain a level and you can then go back to level 1 with +5 base damage and another +10-18 max HP (Humility stacks with all the various HP boosters). The only other deity who gives anywhere near that much power that easily is Taurog, and Taurog is way more of a dick than GG these days. Dracul and TT actually make you suffer for their rewards if you want them right away, but GG is willing to give you some of his nicest toys right up front, very few strings attached.

Assassin. Sure, stat-wise the Rogue and the Monk outperform everyone else, but the Assassin literally breaks the game with Swift Hands, which may as well be called "win button." It lets him completely neglect his damage stat without penalty, something no other class can even attempt. Moreover, the optimal strategy for this class involves not expending any resources on any monster other than the boss. I'll repeat that for emphasis: the Assassin doesn't have to expend any resources on any monster other than the boss. Some classes call level 9 Animated Armors and Illusions "too hard." Assassins call them "lunch."
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Re: Foo Strats (Or Newbie Crutches?)

Postby q 3 on Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:40 pm

You know, after watching that video, I don't think either of us have identified many true "foo" strategies. My understanding is that a "foo" strategy has three key components:

(1) It's readily available to new players;
(2) It's easy to use and master;
(3) It's powerful enough to get you through a significant chunk of the game, but weak enough that you'll eventually run into a brick wall that requires different strategy.

Third-tier classes and second-tier deities aren't readily available, and Whupaz isn't even close - it's locked behind the longest, toughest quest chain in the game. New players aren't going to get it until they've already mastered more difficult strategies.

Many of the strong strategies we've identified are actually rather difficult to learn. Monks and Rogues have debilitating weaknesses that must be overcome, and the obvious ways of overcoming them are often not the best - e.g., Dwarf Rogues are distinctly inferior to Orc Rogues who find some other way of increasing HP. Dracul and Tikki Tooki are fairly stingy with piety and/or require counterintuitive play. Etc.

And, perhaps most importantly, nearly everything we've identified is strong enough to tackle the toughest challenges. Monks, Rogues, Warlords, and Assassins are quite capable of curb-stomping most if not all of the vicious dungeons. Dracul, Tikki Tooki, and Glowing Guardian are widely considered the three strongest deities. Whupaz is Whupaz. Once you master one or more of those strategies, you'll basically never run into a situation where they're too weak to see you through.

~

So if I were to try to identify the real "foo" strategies in Desktop Dungeons, here's what I would say:

Fighters. They're the first real class you unlock, and their abilities are deliberately designed to be easy for new players. Find same- or lower-level monsters, kill them, repeat until you're strong enough to kill the boss. Use your death protection to save yourself from a dumb mistake, or if you're clever to gain a small advantage against the boss. Before the Fighter buff, they ran into big problems late in the game, too, and even now the Fighter-user will have to learn new strategies (i.e., kill things that aren't the same level as you) to stay competitive late in the game.

Humans. The first race that you unlock, and one of the most straightforward. 99% of all strategies ultimately come down to "hit things until they die," and Humans are the best at hitting things. They remain competitive throughout the entire game, though. (If Orcs were more easily accessible, they would be even more of a "foo" strategy, but alas they require quite a bit of effort, patience, and/or luck to unlock.)

Taurog. Likely to be the first deity you unlock, and with the most straightforward beginner strategy: eschew magic. Hit things until they die. Inventory space isn't very important at the beginning, either, since you have few shops and even fewer preps. He also gets too weak to rely on sooner or later, although opinions vary as to when. (And even when you use him late in the game, your strategy will require significant adjustment from "hit things until they die.")

Berserkers. Likely to be the first second-tier class that you unlock (there was even a quest for it at one point, and might still be). Much like Taurog, they encourage you to simply hit things until they die. They also run into trouble late in the game - and unlike Fighters, who got buffed to be better for longer, Berserkers have inexplicably been nerfed.

Other possible candidates: Thieves, Priests, Glowing Guardian, Blacksmith sword and shield, Fine Sword, Health Pendant
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Re: Foo Strats (Or Newbie Crutches?)

Postby Lujo on Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:03 pm

I almost got pwned by Shifty Brickwork!
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Re: Foo Strats (Or Newbie Crutches?)

Postby sitnaltax on Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:42 pm

I am so confused as to what I'm missing from WHUPAZ. Except against bosses with huge piles of HP, it seems to be not much better than one of the free-hit potions.
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Re: Foo Strats (Or Newbie Crutches?)

Postby Lujo on Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:46 pm

I almost got pwned by Shifty Brickwork!
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Re: Foo Strats (Or Newbie Crutches?)

Postby q 3 on Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:28 pm

I do wonder how much the "foo" idea really matters in DD, since there isn't any PVP in which newbies need protection from vets. (PVP would be hilariously broken right now, with noob Human Fighters going up against vet Goblin Assassins: convert APHEELSIK -> Swift Hands noob. Repeat until no one wants to play DD anymore.)
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Re: Foo Strats (Or Newbie Crutches?)

Postby Lujo on Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:04 pm

I almost got pwned by Shifty Brickwork!
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Re: Foo Strats (Or Newbie Crutches?)

Postby Darvin on Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:29 pm

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