Spiked Spikes and Slashy Swords

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Re: Spiked Spikes and Slashy Swords

Postby q 3 on Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:19 pm

The thing is, though, the Rogue really wasn't doing much work there aside from the starting damage bonus; you didn't even use his inherent first strike to finish off the boss. You could have pulled the same exact strategy off with a Berserker, and the only loss would be the 20% dodge - but since you wouldn't have first strike you could actually exploit your dodge prediction more easily (attacking any of the level 1s would have given you a hit and another chance to dodge). You could have done the same thing with a Warlord, too, and would have had the added benefit of guaranteed, repeatable CYDSTEPP and used your mana potions for extra damage bonus (and some phys resist reduction if you got Tower of Goo). And any other class could pull the same thing off with slightly more resources, since again the only thing they're missing is the damage bonus.

It seems to me that this is more the result of a (relatively) careful manipulation of several different elements of the game in order to achieve a powerful result, and not a sign that any one of those things is overpowered. (Although I do think Tikki Tooki's potion boon could stand to be adjusted, and I stand by my repeated comments that Rogues would be much better at 7-8 HP/lv and something like 20-30% damage bonus or 15-20% and +15-20% at full HP. As for the potion preps, well, IMO preps are this game's equivalent of cheat codes anyway so I have no comment. The Trisword, of course, is just silly, but it's always been silly.)
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Re: Spiked Spikes and Slashy Swords

Postby Lujo on Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:48 pm

TBH, the Rogue wasn't doing too much work there, because while I did get lucky with the drops, I was playing an orc, and this is doable with halflings (not sure about SMM, but most others are).

Thing is - when you stack the dodge boon on the starting 20%, then your quicksilvers are almost guaranteed dodges. What's even better, if you prep Namtar's ward, and find say Cydstep and the Badge, you can get a bunch (well 2-3) natural dodges off DP hit attempts. If you find Cydstep and Dracul it gets silly(er).

And, well, the starting damage bonus is a big deal in that it managed to soak up the JJ desecration penalty, but yeah, it's probably doable with a berserker and a warlord. But again - I saw this work without orcs or the trisword so many times, that I see this particular run as "too smooth".

Nevertheless - is this sort of thing required? I mean, if the Rogue is this powerful, and I wasn't playing all that good or bright and I could've gone easier on the preps (it's doable faithless depending on the boss, and it's also doable without locker preps), but if lvl1 is enough to kill a boss that is supposed to have an advantage over you - could the rogue stand to be adjusted a bit and not become "worthless"? I mean, if lvling up to lvl2 can be seen as overkill, then maybe the class is too good even for a newbie crutch? :)

(also, I agree with just about all q3 said)
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Re: Spiked Spikes and Slashy Swords

Postby xspeedballx on Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:53 pm

Is it really a problem with the way progress is designed in the game today that the rogue is inherently powerful? Yep you can use him reliably to kill a lot of dungeons. But that won't help you with most quests, any PQI, or really much other than farming gold ultimately. Rogue is my go to the first time I go to a dungeon for the first time usually. But that usually gets me win and a good idea of the challenge, and then I go do the quests which basically are the real challenges.
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Re: Spiked Spikes and Slashy Swords

Postby Lujo on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:08 pm

xspeedballx wrote:Is it really a problem with the way progress is designed in the game today that the rogue is inherently powerful? Yep you can use him reliably to kill a lot of dungeons. But that won't help you with most quests, any PQI, or really much other than farming gold ultimately. Rogue is my go to the first time I go to a dungeon for the first time usually. But that usually gets me win and a good idea of the challenge, and then I go do the quests which basically are the real challenges.


Tbh, I'm not sure.

The problem are the "complete with X classes" quests - if it's 3 classes that means you can probably do them with warlord, rogue and bloodmage ATM, and in some cases Berserker due to his hit or miss nature. And 2 of such quests have overlap with the witches quests, which means you need 3 "pick-a-class" wins instead of 4. And since at least these 3 can walk all over just about any dungeon on their own, you can pretty much do any such quest easily.

As it turns out, all the VICIOUS quests are such quests, and attempting a vicious run with something this inherently powerfull (the margin of error on the rogue is off the scale) and attempting it with something balanced is not the same thing - but you can use these to grab VICIOUS rewards, which then wreck place elsewhere. Plus, much of the challenge value of VICIOUS dungeons is lost if you go at it with stuff of this caliber. Case in point is Namtars Lair - if you go at it with a Rogue it feels like it needs a buff, if you go at it with something that isn't hilariously over the top it feels like it needs a nerf.

Then you have the fact that quests which involve these guys are easier to do than quests which don't which then steers other unlocks. I've talked about it at lenght in the "concise early" and "concise midgame" feedbacks.

Other than that - well, so what if Rogue breaks certain combinations... I mean, I did the thing up there many times for fun, and it was fun. I like me a complex A-Bomb to put togather, but, as I've said, maybe the damned thing could just be toned down and not this extreme for the game progression sake? It's a 2nd tier class which unlocks Gloves of Midas and TT, does it need to also be able to take down SMM at lvl1?
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Re: Spiked Spikes and Slashy Swords

Postby xspeedballx on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:29 pm

On an alternate thought if we want to talk about "toning down" rogues. It seems one of the largest issues is that the reduced health does not offset the increased damage because fixing the health problem is easy. So what if you couldn't fix the health problem at all? What is Rogues were capped at 7 health per level? Or 8 or something? Or even more hilarious(though complex) there damage bonus was directly related to the amount below 10 hp per level they are. So at level 1 with 5 hp they have 50% bonus, at level 1 with 9 hp they have a 10% bonus.(This is probably overly harsh but the concept is what I am going for).
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Re: Spiked Spikes and Slashy Swords

Postby Lujo on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:36 pm

I actually suggested that in one of the vids that didn't make it - make all the health bonuses for other stuff simply not work, or only be half as effective. That particular solution wouldn't work as the rogue's set of abilities is obviously so good that fixing his drawback completely is the TAMEST way to play him, and even bothering with it was historicaly seen as "suboptimal".*

But there's a ton of stuff that'd work - making his first strike conditional, replacing his dodge with just about anything else, lowering his damage bonus, making his damage bonus conditional, restricting his glyph use, restricting his piety gain, making his attack bonus apply +10% every 2 levels starting at the first (so he has to level like regular people do), and so on and so forth...

*(I kid you not, CYDSTEPP rogue used to be regarded as a legit strat, people were asking for everything to be buffed to that level)
Last edited by Lujo on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spiked Spikes and Slashy Swords

Postby q 3 on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:42 pm

Is the Rogue really that much of a newbie crutch, though? He requires somewhat complex and occasionally counterintuitive tactics not just to excel, but to do reasonably well. How often do players actually use him? How often are they playing a Dwarf (the "obvious" but suboptimal choice for new players) versus an Orc or Halfling (the min-max munchkin choices)? Making it even harder to get HP, or making him even more complicated, poses the risk that experienced players will still find ways to abuse him but that he will become increasingly unplayable for new players.

(Heck, impose an HP cap and I might just switch back to CYDSTEPP scumming, with a quick detour through Dracul to get my max HP down to 1... Now that I think of it, I might try that anyway. :twisted: )
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Re: Spiked Spikes and Slashy Swords

Postby Lujo on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:47 pm

q 3 wrote:(Heck, impose an HP cap and I might just switch back to CYDSTEPP scumming, with a quick detour through Dracul to get my max HP down to 1... Now that I think of it, I might try that anyway. :twisted: )


Right on cue.

q 3 wrote:Is the Rogue really that much of a newbie crutch, though? He requires somewhat complex and occasionally counterintuitive tactics not just to excel, but to do reasonably well. How often do players actually use him? How often are they playing a Dwarf (the "obvious" but suboptimal choice for new players) versus an Orc or Halfling (the min-max munchkin choices)? Making it even harder to get HP, or making him even more complicated, poses the risk that experienced players will still find ways to abuse him but that he will become increasingly unplayable for new players.


Personally, I'd go with the moderate "not a nerf and not a buff" solution - make his health penalty less debilitating, but harder to fix (halves health bonuses, starting health reduced by less than 5), and make his damage scale by 10% every two levels. He'd be easier on the newbies, and if the vets are going to do crazy bullshit with him, at least they'll need to level him up a bit. Heck, that way he'd have +50% at level nine which is better than the current rate...
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Re: Spiked Spikes and Slashy Swords

Postby FDru on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:57 pm

Lower damage bonus would quickly bring the Rogue in line. 20% bonus damage, permanent first strike is still pretty good (as an example) but the damage itself is not better than any other class. Higher base health to compensate (something like 8 per level instead of 5) and done. The current health penalty is a bit extreme anyway.

The only problem being crossover between Rogues and Berserkers, both having innate 20% damage bonus. Not that big of a deal, though.
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Re: Spiked Spikes and Slashy Swords

Postby Lujo on Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:01 pm

FDru wrote:Lower damage bonus would quickly bring the Rogue in line. 20% bonus damage, permanent first strike is still pretty good (as an example) but the damage itself is not better than any other class. Higher base health to compensate (something like 8 per level instead of 5) and done. The current health penalty is a bit extreme anyway.

The only problem being crossover between Rogues and Berserkers, both having innate 20% damage bonus. Not that big of a deal, though.


This. Heck, lower STARTING damage bonus would be enough - anyone can kill a few bosses at lvls 7-9, especially someone with a free hit per monster (first strike) and random chance for another free hit (20% dodge). Noone would care that he's above the curve if he has to play the same game as everyone else to some degree...
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