Munchkin Time

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Re: Munchkin Time

Postby q 3 on Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:58 am

Is it possible to reduce your effective damage to 0? Get knockback and enough damage reduction to take no damage yourself, then just keep smacking a monster into an IMAWAL wall to fuel Rock Heart, instead of casting PISORF. You lose the Fire Heart charge but are spending far less mana.

Also, if you can figure out a way to reduce your max mana, even by 1, you can turn the Transmuter's mana drain into a full MP restore on every conversion. Spirit Sword doesn't activate if your existing bonus is higher than you'd get from your current max MP, but you still get the mana refresh. So, e.g., do one conversion then take Wereward, which would actually kill both of these birds with one boon - and you could also desecrate/anger Taurog to get your damage down.

EDIT: Now that I actually think it through, the knockback thing wouldn't work at all with Spirit Sword, so you could only do one or the other of these. Also, the Bear Mace still hits Goo Blobs for 1 damage into a wall at 5 base damage, so I'm not sure if the knockback thing is even feasible.
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Re: Munchkin Time

Postby Darvin on Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:37 pm

Question: why the limitation to level 1? Am I missing something?

Because you'd need twice as many HP to make this work at level 2. So instead of 100 HP you'd need 200 HP.

Is it possible to reduce your effective damage to 0? Get knockback and enough damage reduction to take no damage yourself, then just keep smacking a monster into an IMAWAL wall to fuel Rock Heart, instead of casting PISORF. You lose the Fire Heart charge but are spending far less mana.

Might be doable, and not dependent on being level 1 either. Desecrating TT and Mystera both would probably be the only way to do this. Desecrating TT would let you smack yourself silly with weakening, but that has a minimum of 1 damage. Same goes for Taurog and his attack penalty. Desecrating Mystera would ensure every monster has resistances so that your 1 damage gets rounded down to 0.

As a wizard, using IMAWAL to create a wall costs 1 MP. Busting it with knockback with a rock heart grants 1 MP and 1 HP. With DR (probably platemail) to ensure you take no damage that means you could build up HP that could then be drained into mana by B2P.

This combo doesn't necesistate a level 1 character or obscene health - since the rock heart scales by level and will always maintain the same ratio with B2P. It also needs much less scumming; we just need Mystera and either Tikki Tooki or Taurog on the field (and a third god who is not Pactmaker or Glowing Guardian; we can't desecrate these guys unless we're worshipping someone else)

Also, if you can figure out a way to reduce your max mana, even by 1, you can turn the Transmuter's mana drain into a full MP restore on every conversion.

You could use the strength potion to over-charge the strength bonus. Definitely a good tip. However, as you mention, this is not viable with knockback. You'd need to be using a fireball approach to do this.

I'm still convinced Wizard is the go-to class for an infinite PISORF chain, and the Transmuter is the go-to class for an infinite BURNDAYRAZ chain.
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Re: Munchkin Time

Postby Darvin on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:18 pm

Okay, I just did a run and the only thing missing was IMAWAL. This is a totally workable infinite fireball build. It doesn't even require too much outlandish scumming. I'll be back later to see if I can get the finished product online (took me ages to scum for Rock Heart to locker the little bugger).

These are the ingredients for our latest blend of cheese. It's definitely possible to come up with different variations of this:

* wizard is the required class
* you need the Rock Heart
* you need a sufficiently weak monster with the weakening property
* you need Taurog
* you need some source of knockback
* you need BURNDAYRAZ, IMAWAL and BLUDTUPOWA

Locker preparation is Rock Heart. No thief den preparations are necessary. From the church, if the dungeon has weakening monsters you should prep Taurog. If it does not have weakening monsters, then prep 4-altar and scum for both Taurog and Tikki Tooki. Take the extra glyphs prep from the mage tower, and the bear mace from the blacksmith.

Once in dungeon, join Taurog's religion and convert some glyphs to purchase his shield for +5 DR. Now go cast glyphs to get Taurog to punish you and take your attack bonus into the negatives (any negative number will do). Convert out of his religion ASAP to avoid further punishment, since he also raises monster magic resistances. Now go attack some weakening monster to bring your base attack to 1 point. You will need to repeat this process every time you level up, so ensure you keep a weakener around. Congrats, you now deal 0 damage on attack and 0 damage on knockback. When attacking a monster that deals less than 5 damage you also take no damage thanks to Taurog's shield. Using IMAWAL you can create a wall, then bash a monster into it. This costs you 1 MP to create the wall and earns you 1 MP and 1 HP per level from the Rock Heart. Nothing takes damage from this exchange so it can be repeated infinitely. With BLUDTUPOWA, infinite healing capabilities means infinite mana capabilities.

Congrats q3, this is a totally workable infinite fireball machine.
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Re: Munchkin Time

Postby Lujo on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:30 pm

Darvin wrote:Using IMAWAL you can create a wall, then bash a monster into it. This costs you 1 MP


Say what? How do you get IMAWAL to cost 1 MP?

Darvin wrote: to create the wall and earns you 1 MP and 1 HP per level from the Rock Heart.


Come again?

Rock Heart gives back 1 MP and 1 HP... PER LEVEL? :shock: That can't be right, because you'd have infinite mana at lvl4 with a regular PISSORF and enough walls...

What've you been smoking? And where can I get some?
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Re: Munchkin Time

Postby Darvin on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:32 pm

Say what? How do you get IMAWAL to cost 1 MP?

Costs 2 MP to use IMAWAL on an empty tile. -1 for playing wizard.

Rock Heart gives back 1 MP and 1 HP... PER LEVEL?

Sorry if I was unclear with the way I phrased that; the level scaling applies ONLY to the HP. It's 1 MP at all levels, and 1 HP per level.
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Re: Munchkin Time

Postby Lujo on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:38 pm

Ah, in that case I see...

What needs to be scummed for again? And does it work in vicious Gaan'Telet? Because I think I allready beat everything else the old fashioned way with the Wizard, at least all VICIOUS stuff...
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Re: Munchkin Time

Postby q 3 on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:46 pm

Darvin wrote:Costs 2 MP to use IMAWAL on an empty tile. -1 for playing wizard.


Are you sure about that? I just tested IMAWAL off an Earthmother prep and got 3 MP cost for an empty tile, 2 MP when playing a Wizard. Is her spawned glyph more expensive or something?
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Re: Munchkin Time

Postby Darvin on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:48 pm

Lujo wrote:Ah, in that case I see...

What needs to be scummed for again? And does it work in vicious Gaan'Telet? Because I think I allready beat everything else the old fashioned way with the Wizard, at least all VICIOUS stuff...

Yes, but have you beaten it with an infinite combo? I think not!

What needs to be prepped:
* Wizard class
* Rock Heart
* Bear Mace

We need:
* Negative attack bonus
* Damage reduction
* A Weakening monster
* IMAWAL and BLUDTUPOWA


The most general way to do this requires Taurog and Tikki Tooki. We also cannot anger Taurog more than necessary, so a third altar (anything other than GG or Pactmaker) will be necessary. Use Taurog to get DR and then anger him to drop your attack bonus. Desecrate TT to put weakening monsters on the field and get the necessary piety to convert out. Hit a level 1 meatman until weakening drops your damage to 0. That level 1 monster cannot damage you due to Taurog's shield, and you cannot damage the monster with attacks or knockback.


Are you sure about that? I just tested IMAWAL off an Earthmother prep and got 3 MP cost for an empty tile, 2 MP when playing a Wizard. Is her spawned glyph more expensive or something?

I'll double-check, but I tested it the other day and got a 1 MP cost.

EDIT: it appears I must have been mistaken, it is in fact 2 MP. Worst of both worlds; won't count towards Fire Heart, but can't go over-unity with the Rock Heart.

Oh well, plan B it is. Prep Martyr Wraps instead of Rock Heart, find some source of death protection, hit the boss once, convert martyr wraps, then keep slamming a monster into the boss for 1 damage.
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Re: Munchkin Time

Postby Lujo on Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:05 pm

Darvin wrote:Yes, but have you beaten it with an infinite combo? I think not!


True :lol:

Darvin wrote:Oh well, plan B it is. Prep Martyr Wraps instead of Rock Heart, find some source of death protection, hit the boss once, convert martyr wraps, then keep slamming a monster into the boss for 1 damage.


Err, make that - just level up to corrode the boss?

And that wont work - 0 damage attacks don't trigger corrosion - I know because I killed the VHoS indomitable by lowering him to 3 attack, taking 3 Vine Forms and slamming him into Blah Blah 40ish times for free. Had a big stack of corrosion on me, didn't hurt me one bit. Then I killed Blah Blah.
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Re: Munchkin Time

Postby Darvin on Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:22 pm

just level up to corrode the boss?

That will also corrode the monster I'm slamming into the boss.

And that wont work - 0 damage attacks don't trigger corrosion

Just found that out. I experimented a bit with some tricks with resistances to make the attack deal 0 damage to one monster and 1 damage to the other, but I couldn't get anything to work.

*sigh*

Okay, back to the convoluted Halfling Transmuter
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