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QCF Design Community • View topic - Design post on the blog!


Design post on the blog!

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Re: Design post on the blog!

Postby Aequitas on Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:21 am

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Re: Design post on the blog!

Postby FDru on Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:17 am

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Re: Design post on the blog!

Postby Lujo on Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:57 am

Same as FDru, except it goes a bit further. Essentially, not having an item handy affects the choices of what I'm even considering to take to a run, whether I'm willing to risk time with, say, a dwarf, or go for a more certain experience with something which synergizes with the items I have. It's often impossible to know whether I even want an item lockered before I locker it, while I always know I want the stuff that's already there. The longer a profile goes, the more this affects my temporary playing habits.

Sometimes I'm in the mood to experiment with a specific thing, being forced by the game to do something else is hugely annoying. Failing a vicious 2-3 times and coming up with an item that would help me, breaks the mindset I was in, and if scumming for it takes long enough, it affects my further efforts immensly. Avatar mentioned this with piercing wand and daemonic library recently, and it resonated strongly with my experiences.

Many PQI runs have a non-sinergistic race/class/badge/dungeon setup, which having an item handy would change in an instant, from "would take a major perspective shift" to anything between "skippable" - "interesting and novel". Many races and classes become way more interesting with items that are niche (as in the case with Blue Bead). Scumming for that item with a tinker requires revealing an entire map, scumming with a transmuter has me looking at less shops.

The game offers enough runs to make (over (edited after calculation) 700 (!!!) hundred even if I manage to get "everything" without redundancy), and while I love quests, feeling forced to do a run with all the possible ones looking at me tantalizingly is very offputing. This increases the more time I spend playing in the course of a playthrough - and at the point where I'm "in form" enough to do vicious runs on a regular basis, justifying doing redundant time-consuming runs as a time investment becomes increasingly impossible.

Relockering a vicious reward means that I have to do a specific vicious run - if I want Naga Cauldron I need to do Naga City, even if I'd be more interested in investing my time into investigating, say, Demonic Library. It's why I have only one run of daemonic libaray - I did 3 everywhere else without vicious rewards, to test their challenge level, but I waited with the last dungeon untill I've ground a locker slot, to avoid having to do that dungeon more times than I want. Untill this playthrough, I've played Namtar's Lair about 2-3 times total, to my memory - I'm not at all interested in playing that place other than lockering the ward, and removing it from my locker would mandate doing something I've never felt inclined to do off my own free will for a year.

As for why not pick stuff up on regular runs - well, I don't even use the prepped items all that much, I use them to keep my options open. Items I bring back from a run get judged against the items allready in the locker - and if they're more niche or easier to scum for, lockering them would affect me during the prep screen in a more limiting way, or increase the chances I'll have to invest more time into looking for whatever I took out.

Not to mention that many things which I would love to have available are also things which get converted on a regular basis, and I never actually finish a run with them in my inventory. I'm big on troll heart, bloody sigil, mage plate and such. Even if they weren't judged in "effort/need to relocker" against stuff that can't be beat in that category, I rarely ever see them even in the backpack. That's a bit of backpack feedback I was meaning to give but kept forgetting about.
Last edited by Lujo on Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Design post on the blog!

Postby Sidestepper on Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:02 pm

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Re: Design post on the blog!

Postby Blovski on Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:02 pm

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Re: Design post on the blog!

Postby xspeedballx on Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:39 pm

So I have been reading a lot of these discussions both on this thread and the other and have already butted heads I believe with both sides. However last night while arguing with a friend about Diablo 3, I think I noticed a correlation. Roguelikes and there modern hipster children ARPG's are built on RNG. They function best on RNG. The idea that while there are certainly efficient paths, your best hope is to see ones as they appear and not be able to plan them.

D3 has a massive problem that there is not ENOUGH random(blasphemy I know). It causes people into the same repeated path while hoping the few levers they get to pull produce something nice. There is zero scumming for efficiency because the efficient path is clear(clear these 5 zones in act 3 as fast as possible, exit repeat, pick up only the 5 yellow items).

What I am seeing is that by offering more control with locker slots and preps in general you reduced the random and replaced it with constants. Now players can SEE clear efficient paths but not always reach them(though they are obtainable) which feels painful. Those players this effect are demanding for a solidifying of the constants. When the reality is the removal of them altogether(locker slots not being restorable going in that direction) would have a similar comforting effect by moving towards what the Devs are describing as playing a run for fun, and getting what you can out of it.

I am weird though, I love chaos in my games. I love having no idea what the next moment will be. I love it because I can focus on the game and not on the efficiency. I love playing Dominion with 4 players(BUT IT'S BEST WITH 2!!!!), I loved D2 because I didn't have to worry that better gear was a menu screen away. I could focus on the random of how my build ends up with what the game provides.

Alpha had some gold scumming but the focus was largely on making due with what God's you could find early and items in your pool. Sometimes you were lucky and found powerful objects next to start with pactmaker saying hello. Sometimes you had to get creative. I posted before that this game is at it's best when it makes you feel smart, and when you prep to make the run precisely what you want, it isn't. At least not for me. What I hear Aequitas saying is why not just play the game, if you end the run with an item of interest to experiment with(wow I did some interesting things with the vampiric blade that time, wonder what else I can do), then run off with the item.

Sorry if this was slightly rambling, written over 40 minutes with many distractions.
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Re: Design post on the blog!

Postby dislekcia on Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:23 pm

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Re: Design post on the blog!

Postby gjaustin on Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:34 pm

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Re: Design post on the blog!

Postby Lujo on Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:41 pm

I think this is the old "is DD a puzzler or a roguelike" thing. It's not mutualy exclusive, but people show natural bias, and some show bafflement about "what the other guys are even doing here"? Thing to note is that puzzle lovers tend to get hooked on DD really hard and think it's the best thing since sliced bread, and something the genre never really had.

Its this game with 5 (number of directions) X 18 (number of classes) X 5 (number of dungeons per direction) + 25 (directions times dungeons) X 11 (number of badges) + 12 (number of classes) X 3 (number of challenges) + ??? (number of things labeled as puzzles) = number of puzzles to solve in a manner vaguely resembling rpg gameplay. Not counting either hard or vicious Gaan'Telet, for when you're 80 years old. Those numbers don't look remotely unappealing to a puzzle player - that there is a whole life of happy puzzle solving! While the market for roguelikes offers an endless supply of stuff to the roguelike fans, the puzzle guys have never ever had something like this.

This is very likely where the misunderstanding is coming from - DD seems to have more (or stronger) appeal to people who don't care too much for roguelikes at all, to whom even the fantasy setting itself is likely an obstacle more than a draw. Yet the mechanic and the vast number of runs (over 800! not counting unsucessful runs) are the holy grail to them. Yet even the most hooked up (like me) are aware of the time investment, and are trying to test something that can last you a lifetime if enjoyed in a sensible and healthy manner in a very short period of time. When roguelike elements cause an inflation of real time investment required - they feel that whoever's pushing for that is out of his mind, and when someone assumes that the type of person who'll attempt full completion by any means necessary is rare - they feel like the demographic which would appreciate the system the most is not even being considered.

It's probably the basis of all the "the devs have less faith in their game than us" sentiment, as well. And also "you belong to a minority of exceptional players" - no, I'm your average dedicated tbs/puzzle guy, except they don't get involved with forums and gaming subcultures as much as other demographics so I look like I fell from Mars (on top of my personal failings). Most of them don't even think of themselves as gamers, to the point that they can seem as incredible munchkins and not even be aware of this...

EDIT: They do buy a ton of crap off steam though, if GOTY for Plants vs Zombies or the whole puzzle quest episode is anything to judge from. If I remember my examples correctly. They're also big on mobile gaming, as well, since it supports their preffered genres much better than most other ones. And when they latch onto a game or franchise they don't let up easily. It's also why I'm convincet DD will do well finanicialy once it hits steam - if it manages to sort out what it wants to be, even if it means coming with two game modes "puzzle" and "roguelike".

EDIT: And this is also why a puzzle fan who got to experience the system and made the connection would fork over hundreds and (if rich enough) thousands of dollars for a version of the game with the scumming and grind removed entirely. You could literaly make two separate versions of the game and sell them to two different demographics who would be practicaly and ideologicaly outraged at the idea of having to deal with what the other finds appealing. Except the roguelike guys can get all the kicks but session lenght elsewhere, puzzle guys not so much.
Last edited by Lujo on Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:48 pm, edited 13 times in total.
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Re: Design post on the blog!

Postby xspeedballx on Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:55 pm

This is going to seem hugely off topic, but I actually think it is relevant and would love to hear opinions and actual facts:
Can every dungeon be completed purist every time?(Let's ignore bugs for now, the screwed thread highlights those nicely). Meaning, if a person played perfectly but without additional knowledge could every dungeon achieve a purist win? Similarly can every badge/class/race have a strategy created that will guarantee a win for a given dungeon?
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