First 8 gold challenges.

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Re: First 8 gold challenges.

Postby dislekcia on Mon May 27, 2013 10:33 am

Lujo wrote:I'm done with it.


Lujo wrote:more textwall


Anyway...

The Avatar wrote:Kingdom of One's original point (as I understand it) was that it doesn't make sense to have to scum for veto (and locker too, I guess) items to put in slots. This is the classic why do we have to scum/can we have a vault argument. We've had this before and it comes to nothing but angry people. Seeing as no one appears to have changed their beliefs on this topic I fail to see how anything but more angry people can result from an effectively identical discussion.


Veto item slot population is not the same as locker slot limitations. Yes, at the moment they use the same system and yes, we're unlikely to change a system like that right now, but they're not fundamentally the same issue. Locker items are about increasing item value perception in players, everything about that system is designed to do that (including limiting slot numbers and hunting for items). Veto slots are about a perceived lack of gameplay relevance in specific items, unfortunately we don't have enough real stats on people using veto slots to be able to tell if people who do veto items are negatively affected by what that process is like.

A much smaller percentage of players even HAVE veto slots available and for those that do, veto slot churn tends to be related to very specific repeated dungeon attempts at harder dungeons - AND the number of runs that seem to be dedicated to item finding in that case are dwarfed by the number of runs that seem to be scumming for favorable starts and shop items. That makes sense, veto slots are supposed to ease the need for scumming in players that want to actually scum - it appears that they do achieve that, but I can't say for certain if the way players populate those slots is a good or a bad thing because I don't have massive numbers on that yet.

Players just starting out with vetoing do seem to have more locker churn during their item hunting runs and those runs are also longer (by an order of magnitude) than the veteran vetoers' hunting runs, suggesting that they are still playing the game instead of purely scumming.

To be honest, I don't see how pre-demonising us devs and saying that we won't listen when talking about player feedback is a useful strategy at all, that appears to be what Lujo keeps wanting to do to newly verbose players. We want MORE feedback, not the same feedback from the same players. Which is why I pointed out that Lujo's perspective isn't universal, is rather negative/dismissive and simply doesn't have the data that we do... For instance, Lujo's locker churn is far, far lower than the average and at the same time, his locker item usage spread is way below the average as well. We know why that is because he's told us how he feels about items, but that doesn't change the fact that his locker playstyle, even among veterans, isn't normal (nor does it seem to indicate a pattern of play that emerges after players gain experience either, it's an outlier). I'm not dismissing Lujo's feelings, I'm just saying that I can't justify making sweeping changes to the game because of them. Although I do wish he'd be a bit nicer about discussing them.

Does wanting more people's views/experiences and not hearing the same angry points from the same angry people make me inherently angry too? Or am I allowed a certain dose of perspective here? ;)
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Re: First 8 gold challenges.

Postby berpdreyfuss on Mon May 27, 2013 11:20 am

I think veto and locker slots are a different issue.

I have one veto slot and haven't used it yet because the items that I take out of a dungeon are usually not the ones I want to veto. I have not optimised my play so far that I know which items I want to veto anyway so it never occurred to me to go scum for an item to veto it.

If I had a choice to veto any of the items I unlocked so far I guess I would have done it just to play around with it.
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Re: First 8 gold challenges.

Postby Kingdom of One on Mon May 27, 2013 11:51 am

Well, as the topic is here to stay...the perspective of someone who has yet to use his unlocked veto slots or to put off an attempt at a dungeon until he has found the relevant items (for locker or veto) for a strategy.

I don't have a problem with locker slots. Flavour-wise, you get the item and put it in a locker and then you can use it again.
This makes sense. If you really want to use a particular item then you have to hunt it down. An ease-of-use addition for late endgame makes some kind of sense but has yet to seem necessary.

Veto slots on the other hand don't make sense. I need to get the item to show it to the bazaar people so that they know not to send it? Why can't I just tell them? If I don't want to use an item - the last thing I want to do is have to hunt it down.

Also, if I've completed a dungeon and have some extra gold it seems weird looking through shops to see if there is anything I should buy so that I can then veto (whereas buy so that I can use in a future run makes sense).
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Re: First 8 gold challenges.

Postby Lujo on Mon May 27, 2013 1:26 pm

Kingdom of One wrote:[EDIT: Just thought I'd add that it appears to be teaching the skills that I'd asked for in an extra 'switching between multiple gods' set of puzzles from a previous post. I've also now finally prepped an altar :lol:.]


Yeah, Naga City is THE place to learn about what you can do with gods and how important they are. I'm of the oppinion that that that lesson should come earlier, as well.

dislekcia wrote:Lujo's perspective isn't universal, is rather negative/dismissive and simply doesn't have the data that we do... For instance, Lujo's locker churn is far, far lower than the average and at the same time, his locker item usage spread is way below the average as well... ...his locker playstyle, even among veterans, isn't normal (nor does it seem to indicate a pattern of play that emerges after players gain experience either, it's an outlier).


For god's sake. Lujo's locker item usage spread is abysmal as a direct concequence of your design decisions. You guys, and nothing else, are responsible for that there bit of statistic. If relockering stuff was a matter of paying some gold instead of wasting time, the spread would be huge - it has just always been tailored to avoid having to do any inane and repetitive tasks. You only have statistics that reflect the behaivior of people given 0 choice in the matter - it's either do the only thing available or give up on experimenting with the system because it's unreasonable. Put a button in there that lets you type in the name of an item you've unlocked and locker it for a 1000 gold, give people an actual choice, and see what it does to the statistc.

Anyway, I taped a vid, it's going on you tube later today.
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Re: First 8 gold challenges.

Postby dislekcia on Mon May 27, 2013 2:56 pm

Lujo wrote:For god's sake. Lujo's locker item usage spread is abysmal as a direct concequence of your design decisions. You guys, and nothing else, are responsible for that there bit of statistic. If relockering stuff was a matter of paying some gold instead of wasting time, the spread would be huge - it has just always been tailored to avoid having to do any inane and repetitive tasks. You only have statistics that reflect the behaivior of people given 0 choice in the matter - it's either do the only thing available or give up on experimenting with the system because it's unreasonable. Put a button in there that lets you type in the name of an item you've unlocked and locker it for a 1000 gold, give people an actual choice, and see what it does to the statistc.


Or you have a completely different perception of "inane and repetitive tasks" to everyone else. The fact that other people appear to not be making the same decisions as you are shows that they don't feel the same overwhelming urges and limitations that you do.

The way other players also don't act like total shits just further emphasises your uniqueness. Re-read what I wrote until you feel the need to clarify your understanding of my view instead of the need to correct my obvious stupidity in hostile ways.

...

This thread is being really useful in helping us think about Veto slots and their role in the game. We had thought that returning from an otherwise "failed" attempt at a difficult run with items to veto would have been a consolation "win" condition at the very least. We also don't want players to decide that they want to try a specific difficult dungeon and head straight to their veto slots to set all of them right away, that seems like it would encourage scumming more than alleviate it because it implied an "always perfect" expectation of shop items, instead of a gradual tailoring towards a generally favorable random selection. Hence being concerned with the stats of when and how people scum for specific shop loadouts in the first place.
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Re: First 8 gold challenges.

Postby dislekcia on Mon May 27, 2013 3:03 pm

Random thought: Would it help explain the need for an actual vetoable item if we called them "Return slots" or tied in the idea of physical warranties somehow?

Bezar does not accept shipping costs on returned goods, but will prevent the shipping of further similar items until your dispute is dismissed. Note that all contact with Bezar or Bezar's support appendages may be recorded for amusement or blackmail purposes.
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Re: First 8 gold challenges.

Postby Kingdom of One on Mon May 27, 2013 3:46 pm

That particular explanation doesn't work for me.
I'm not sure it's possible to come up with one that does though as you won't get away from the fact that you're still searching for something you explicitly don't want to find (again).
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Re: First 8 gold challenges.

Postby berpdreyfuss on Mon May 27, 2013 4:34 pm

Idea: You are able to veto items which you saw in a shop but didn't buy in your last run. This would be similar to the locker system but would make more sense.
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Re: First 8 gold challenges.

Postby Lujo on Mon May 27, 2013 7:21 pm

dislekcia wrote:We also don't want players to decide that they want to try a specific difficult dungeon and head straight to their veto slots to set all of them right away, that seems like it would encourage scumming more than alleviate it because it implied an "always perfect" expectation of shop items, instead of a gradual tailoring towards a generally favorable random selection. Hence being concerned with the stats of when and how people scum for specific shop loadouts in the first place.


So you don't want players to do... what players want to do? But that's the perfect summation of why I'm so eternally pissed off at you! It has the opposite effect! You can now do almost 100 percent of the things in the game without scumming - EXCEPT manipulate the veto and locker slots. And you can manipulate that with 100% certain outcomes BY SCUMMING. Who's the guy who'd have the lowest rotation of items in the locker/veto because of this? The guy least inclined to ever scum, yet using locker/veto slots at all... -.-

If you wanted to remove scumming, you could do it in a blink of an eye - but you can't remove the desire or the percieved need for getting the optimal setup. And people are happily doing it and it's not harming anyone (think waldo), except it just takes lots of scumming. Filled up veto slots don't encourage scumming, they reduce the need to scum during the runs (for people who want various setups). Having to scum in order to fill them up MANDATES scumming. It's the only scumming I ever do outside of VGT!

Have you seen how easy it is to tailor your veto slots with a goblin transmuter is if you're willing to sink a 20mins into it? It's easier to create "perfect setup veto pools" by scumming than any other way - you can haul out 2-3 things at once!
Last edited by Lujo on Mon May 27, 2013 10:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: First 8 gold challenges.

Postby Raz on Mon May 27, 2013 7:43 pm

I can't foresee myself scumming to fill veto slots to tailor store outcome (although I do see that as the eventual passive outcome of filling veto slots, actively tailoring is a different matter). If I am that desperate to win a particular run, there must be some flaw in my play, or I am too narrow minded to try something different rather than beat my head against a wall (fun comparison) scumming for that particular item or 2 to remove. For me, scumming is not fun, and definitely not necessary, therefore i don't do it (except to unlock the occasional race or witch quest).
Just my 2 cent here.
Lujo- Seems your hoping for another week off. Your point has been heard (over and over...).
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