Extreme East Spoiler and Discussion Thread

[shade_of_ox]

@Srid - you'd be surprised at how the cost can start racking up when you're scumming for a very precise build (2 specific gods with at least one good desecration as well, and also specific shop items). I don't even think my Rat Monarch VGT run cost me this much, actually.

[shade_of_ox]

This is a new one on me.
http://prntscr.com/l9pscf
http://prntscr.com/l9psej
Nameless Beast boss is intangible, causing a softlock. As far as I can tell I was playing the game normally, there was nothing in particular that I did that seemed to cause this.

[shade_of_ox]

@Avatar - I'm really stumped on this run. I tried out your strategy, prepped Dwarven Gauntlets (since I can't use Fido obviously), found Cursed Cutlass. Desecrate Binlor and EM for 3 stacks of lifesteal, barely managed to kill Balder (it was down to the last tile of blackspace), got to Cocyteon, and... died. My damage was over 150, but I could barely get Cocyteon down to around 600 HP in that run, and that includes dodge+reflex. I think this build just doesn't have enough staying power to take him down, unless you get lucky with dodges (I didn't).

This challenge requires so much scumming, so far I've burned over 20k gold on it and I've only been trying for a couple of days. Even so, I'm not clear on how this build is supposed to win without some crucial dodges, because once Cocyteon gets to around 1000 HP almost all of my resources are gone. If I'm putting more emphasis on base damage I could try Human Rogue instead, but I don't think that will change much, because so far my attempts with this build haven't even been close.

As a side note, I had a suggestion about EB in general, if you're open to those.
I am having problems with consistency getting to Cocyteon in the first place. There's a lot of variance in which bosses you get when, with some of them being almost unbeatable (if you get Soul Sucker at the end and don't have LEMMISI, you're dead, and if you have Frozen Troll with no Doom Armor at the end, you're also probably dead). I think that's just as much a problem with the normal version of EB as well, and I think it would be a lot more interesting if you could somewhat choose which boss to tackle first.

You could implement this as follows:
At camp, when you talk to Balder, he says something along the lines of "Fellow pilgrim, we must forge deeper into the cold. I have spotted several trails that lead to a respite against the frost. How shall we proceed?", and gives you two options (out of the five possible boss rooms, after the third time in the camp he tells you there is only one way forward and asks if you are ready to go, as he does now). This instantly removes almost all the variance from the dungeon, because as soon as he tells you which two are available, you will have a good idea of which areas will be available after you've cleared the first area (since he won't repeat the choices). At the same time, you can choose whichever dungeon is better for your build while accepting that you'll have to fight the enemy you did NOT choose at the end, which leads to strategic decisionmaking the likes of which haven't been seen in any dungeon I know of. For example, the Frozen Troll is a very difficult first enemy without DR, but the Fireweaver is also quite difficult thanks to his physical resists, so making a decision between them is actually quite tough for a lot of builds. All in all I think this would help the dungeon feel a lot more fair and eliminate a lot of scumming (I've had a few runs where everything is going great, I have all the items and gods I want, but before I can buy them, the Doom Armor shows up and kills me since you can't really put a dent in it as a Rogue).

Barring that change, I think just making Balder at least tell you where you're going would be nice too.

[The Avatar]

[shade_of_ox]

I forgot to mention, but in that run I did also go JJ and got 2 Boost Healths before I swapped into Dracul and desecrated. That's why I can barely believe that you even cleared the run - aside from Fido, I pretty much did everything you did, I think, and I can't see how 9 base damage makes a difference between 600 health remaining and a win.

I also didn't realize Cocyteon wipes ALL bonus damage, I thought he only gave a -80% or something, which would have made the human a decent choice. In that case it makes sense to go all-out on base damage. Problem is, there is no class that actually gives base damage, and aside from Fine Sword and Cursed Cutlass there are no shop items that give it in significant amounts either. It almost makes me wonder if hopping into Taurog for Skullpicker (and maybe the shield for the Doom Armor) might not be a bad idea. I don't think there's really enough piety on the map to do that going from JJ -> Dracul, even with a desecration/Consensus/Antitheist's Collar. I tried out the TT with Alchemist Scroll build as well, but my first boss was Doom Armor so it never really got off the ground.

I think I'm going to give up on this one for now, I'm getting pretty bored of resetting every 2 seconds only to get into a good run that gets cut off by a late Troll + Soul Sucker or early Doom Armor.

[The Avatar]

[shade_of_ox]

Yeah, my gods were JJ -> Dracul, desecrating the other two. The TT run was by no means by best, it barely got off the ground.

Just tried another run using the TT strat, this one got farther and I thought I was in decent shape, but even with 30% dodge I got 0 dodges against Cocyteon...

[shade_of_ox]

I've tried out the TT run a couple more times, and it's definitely stronger, but hard to get to the boss consistently. I think with both Gloves of Midas and Dwarven Gauntlets + Alchemy Scroll, as well as maybe Fine Sword or Serpentine Shield, it's probably winnable so long as you don't get screwed by 30% dodge.

[The Avatar]

Yep, just got a second win with TT->Dracul. However I used dev tools to avoid scumming (they don't increase the number of altars/glyphs/shops/etc. I get, but merely let me select what shows in them) so I'm not going to post a screenshot of the win. I don't think you need as specific item drops with this build (only Alchemist Scroll stands out as an absolute must, assuming you prep Dwarven Gauntlets), but the key is getting Pactmaker+Drac+TT. Pactmaker lets TT start you with both 1 layer of learning and +10% dodge. From there you can push it to take a second layer of learning (which I did, by selecting a Binlor as my 4th altar), but actually I don't think it's necessary or even that helpful. A few shots of poison is probably more worthwhile. From there, you run TT for the first two sections (don't instantly give up if doom armor shows--it's very beatable and you don't actually miss out on that much piety given how frequently you'll dodge it with the inherent 30%) to get 3 reflex+quicksilvers and transition to Drac for 2 lifesteal. In terms of items, vampiric blade is obviously fantastic, as is cursed cutlass, but also platemail is surprisingly fantastic after you swap into Drac. Agnostic or Antithiest collars are both good pulls, and don't hesitate to grab a badge of honor for the DP if you see it, as it'll get you out of frostbite from the frozen troll or 275 damage from the Soul Sucker if they spawn late.

The are a few key changes in preps for this too. I recommend Dwarven Gauntlets as it saves you the most gold for you runs, yet since scumming for Alchemist scroll and then one of the three best quest items (Cutlass, Vampy, Platemail) is a pain it can be smart to just prep which of those 3 you prefer and run elite items to facilitate DG and AS spawning commonly. Thief Den is still Black Market, Wizard is Attack Boosters, Church is Conjunction, and Blacksmith is Perseverance Badge per normal. Since you don't need to buy much stuff upfront outside of alchemist scroll, stick with compression (especially since TT gives an immediate +20 gold and there are plenty of good things to buy apart form the best items). Bazaar would ideally be Apothecary, but I don't actually think it needs to be to win, so feel free to do Quest/Elite depending on your locker prep to cut down on scumming. The biggest key is in the Witch: Don't prep whupaz. Instead prep salve so you can smash EM if necessary and otherwise fuel AS on level 1 while still keeping 1 health potion, quicksilver, and reflexes. This may sound unintuitive as heck (it's a free 500 damage, right?!), but Whupaz is actually *bad* for your rogue because of how Cocyteon works. As you might have noticed, the damage prediction for how much you suffer after your first whupaz shot on the boss is way off. It says you'll be at 70-90 and instead you're at 20-40. This is because first strike along with you immediately reducing his health to 75% causes him to smite-reduce your health to 66% *before* he damages you, resulting in 33% of your health being totally wasted. Since your damage is already going to be <120, and lifesteal+dodge significantly increases your survivability, the whupaz can actually be hurting your run more than it helps.

[shade_of_ox]

I've tried your updated strategy and I still can't get him below 300 HP.

My latest run:
Gods: PM, TT, Dracul, Binlor. I prepped Draining Blade but drank salve at level 1 with Alchemist Scroll. I also had the Cursed Cutlass, but no DG or Troll Heart, so my health was a bit lower than usual. I got to Cocyteon with 3 reflexes and quicksilvers. Still, I didn't even come close to beating him in this run, because my max health was just too low to take more than a few hits from Cocyteon (again, no random dodges). I think maybe extra health boosters is a better call than extra damage, since he wipes your bonus damage anyway...
By the way, is it a known bug that Quicksilver doesn't count as a potion for the purposes of Alchemist's Scroll? If so it's probably in the base game, but I don't really understand why...

Just to give some perspective, I've spent somewhere around 50k gold on this dungeon at this point. It's a ridiculous amount of scumming, far more than Curious VGT, because you need 3 specific gods with pretty much one god out of two others, as well as at least two specific shop items. On top of all that you can get screwed by unlucky spawns (for instance the crypt after you convert to Dracul). So that comes to less than 1% of your runs even having a chance of making it to the boss, and if you don't get a lot of dodges on the boss you're dead.

I don't think it's a good idea to buff the boss to such an insane extent for a Curious, because as you said, it kind of sucks the fun out of the game by forcing you to do a bunch of really precise optimization when playing the dungeon. This dungeon in particular suffers from this because it seems to be balanced around getting the exact precise god combo and item pool you need, which is almost impossible to scum for.

In comparing the dungeon to Curious VGT, I think VGT is far better done. In Curious VGT, the real challenge isn't just killing the boss, but also getting through all the challenges in your way. If you wanted to extend the gimmick, why not get rid of the full heal and frostbite wipe when leaving a zone, and make the player go through all five of the bosses in their own dungeons (the last 2 dungeons have most enemies at level 10), maybe with some VGT-style misfortunes giving Frostbite, corrosion/weakening or curse, or giving all enemies Frostbite, Corrupting Aura or DP. Also, an increasing difficulty multiplier for each zone would be cool and thematically consistent as you go deeper into the blizzard. As for the boss, making the ???s start with 1 HP and 1 damage, but gain health+damage quickly as you kill them, realistically only allowing for a couple of refills, would fit the theme better than just starting them off as completely unkillable.