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QCF Design Community • View topic - Game Philosophy


Game Philosophy

All things Desktop Dungeons

Game Philosophy

Postby Fran on Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:06 pm

After seeing the recent changes in the game during the last couple weeks, and the way they've been reveived in the forums, I've been thinking about something...
Sometimes, I'm not really sure what to think about the attitude in the forums here.

While I appreciate the concern about the metagame and so on, I'm really asking myself sometimes what is expected out of the game.
I mean, in the end, it's still a game... it is for your entertainment. And whether you find the game entertaining or not depends on your idea of entertainment.
Furthermore, and that is what I find most disturbing, is the way that only the game is held responsible for the amount of fun you can get out of it, as if this was independent of the way you play the game.

On one side, people are trying the best to break the game and on the other side, it's the games fault that it is too easy after it has been broken by certain strategies. Although I see why it's important to point such things out and that those things should be fixed, I'm kind of puzzled about what people expect.
I mean, if I find a way to play the game, and it spoils the fun by making everything too easy, the logical conclusion for me is to stop abusing it. Easy as that. I'd maybe come here and say that I find this too easy so it can be investigated if a change would make the game more fun to play, but I certainly wouldn't consistently whine and demand changes in all possible ways.
If this was a multiplayer game, things certainly would be different, as it should be fair to all players. But it simply isn't a multiplayer game. If some people find delight in having an easy time in vicious dungeons by abusing combinations (where the parts most of the time are in fact not broken taken by themselves), for gods sake, let them do it. If you can't restrain from using them, it's not the games fault in my opinion. (However, it is the games fault when you don't have other options.)

In this context, I can't understand why some people are so dogmatic about what the game should allow and what not. Just because something is strong doesn't mean everybody is abusing it. The monk change is an especially good example in my opinion:
Although as unbalanced as he was in the last update, I still wasn't able to beat dragon isles with him. Believe it or not, there are *real* people that are new to the game / don't care so much about powergaming and just want to have fun trying things out. On the other hand, I was able to beat dragon isle with the berserker class. So if your not that skilled, there are often real alternatives that make your game easier, regardless of how stronger something is potentially.

Now the monk is changed and people (like me) that played the class for its flavour without stacking resistances are hurt even more than the ones abusing it. In some way, I, as a player feel left out now as i don't like the new monk.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a game where you have meaningful decisions and i think the game has greatly improved since i bought it. And although I'm not as good at the game as you guys, i still have fun with it.
But I don't like the trend that balancing the game is only about nerfing what can possibly be abused, while there are fine ways to use the ingame content without abusing it, as with the monk.
I get the feeling that it's all about who consistently whines the most (don't take this personally lujo) gets the game changed in his favour. I'm not sure if i like that.
Last edited by Fran on Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Game Philosophy

Postby q 3 on Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:25 pm

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Re: Game Philosophy

Postby Fran on Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:43 pm

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Re: Game Philosophy

Postby TigerKnee on Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:21 pm

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Re: Game Philosophy

Postby Lujo on Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:38 pm

I'm not taking it personally Fran (although I'm to blame for making s much of a fuss about a few things). But please, do take time to read this, it might change your point of view.

I, like you, am a casual player at heart. I've been purpusefully avoiding "cheats" for ages myself. I haven't touched cydstep for a good while, and I avoid the triling at all costs, on the very same principle that you state in the opening of your post. I even avoided the Monk and the Thief for a good, long while.

I'm the guy who likes finding ways to beat the game with a fighter. I just like to have them.

What got me so worked up in the first place is the dungeons and content unlocks I felt were forcing me to use these strats. the first time I beat Dragon isles WAS with the Berserker, and it's quite doable not because he's straightforward, he's not, but because his "high above the curve" advantage (50% magic resists) lets him ease through the entire engdame of the dungeon.

However, classes with abilities such as those were enabling people to beat stuff that was made way too hard for anyone but the hardcore crowd, and it was made way to hard because the hardcore crowd were given the busted tools like the Monk, the Triling, The Conversion Stone, The Dragonshield, Cydstep and some others.

So people were posting wins all over the place, and you could get the impression that the game was easy. It wasn't, it was just that a bunch of pro's were given "cheats". While they were rocking the game couldn't be brought (up or down) to a level where a casual player might stand a chance without the "cheats".

In this situation, it's no wonder you liked the Monk - the game overall was unreasonably difficult, and you ran into a godmode cheat masquarading as a second tier class, and possibly felt gratified that you were finally making progress. It's the same as the whoopaz potion - if we need that in the game, why the hell DO we need it in the game?

All of my clamoring and whining and spamming, the discovery of the conversion strategy, and all that, it was all an experiment to prove how there was insanely powerfull stuff lying around if you admit that beating sometihing with a Triling or a Cydstepper doesn't mean anything. I didn't GO for the cheeze or powergaming, I was AVOIDING cheeze and powergaming.

And if I didn't do that, plenty of testers wouldn't be avare of just how much trouble Compilcated tasks quests were. I actually started posting because of the Magma Mines - a lvl a casual player feels like he needs to beat, but can't - because it's been "balanced" around hardcore vets abusing "god mode" mechanics. The Complicated tasks I & II are DEVASTATING to a beginner players game - they destroy his shops and force him into thinking stuff is only doable with a Monk, a Thief, a Paladin, a Cydstepper or a Triling (or classes that in certain situations emulate their defining bustedcharacteristics, like a Berserker that pull's a "better Monk" in a lvl full of magic damage).

Me not unlocking stuff was also based on the correct logic that unlocking most stuff in the game actually makes it harder for the non-hardcore crowd, and that the game is paradoxicaly EASIER if you in fact don't unlock most of the content. It turned out way more powerfull than I expected, sure, but the intention was to show that the whole balancing model (or philosophy) of "if it's beatable with anything its balanced" is braindead and that it causes non-hardcore people no end of frustration and grief.

Yes, with the Monk the way it is now (still horrendusly overpowered unless you have all bosses do magic damage), Demonic Library seems harder than ever, but that's not the correct way of looking at things. Demonic library was ALWAYS stupidly and pointlessly difficult - now it's just obvious. And before this slight nerf to Monk, and a deserving nerf to cydstep, people would just say - "No it's not, I just steamrolled it with X class with Y preps" which basically ment that you turned a Triling into either a Monk, a cydstepper or Bloodmage.

To obtain the Conversion Stone you need to beat a lvl 5 Bridge troll on half a map (undoable for a newbie), and then feel confident enough not to use it on the spot (probably impossible for a newbie), and you needed theat Conversion stone later as it was more powerfull than any vicious reward. And to keep using it you needed 100 gold after any run in which u used it, failed or sucesfull. AND it was making stupidly difficult things doable, which was then the justification for it being in the game. People would seriously say "Don't nerf the stone the X race needs it to be viable." So in order for a race to be viable, you have to be able to jump through a flaming hoop, and then locker a convertible item that also costs gold to use and ties up an alchemy slot, and gives 3-4 other races superpowers?

That was the elitist narow minded philosophy I was going against.

There's tons of content in the game, and once the testers are faced with the true difficulty of the hard and vicious stuff, there will be nerfs, small and big, and then everyone will be able to enjoy lots more flavourfull content without so much frustration and grind. And that can't be done if the overpowered stuff is pushing everything else out. Unlocking goats is no longer a nightmare, now that Bleaty has been nerfed - with cydstep and Monks as no brainer options he was untouched for months and could turn up in newbie dungeons. Was there ever any justification for him being such a nightmare? No.

What just happened is that all the god-mode stuff was brought in line a bit, and what has to follow is the reduction of difficulty in all of the dungeons. They'll still be challenging and fun, but they will have more solutions to them, and few of those will be "Noob! Just take Monk, convert everything and steamroll for gerat lolz!" or "Dragon isles is doable - you just have to scum up JJ for the mana, and then blood tithe all your HP on Drac, oh, and you also need to scum up cydstep... But it's challenging, I wouldn't nerf it, no sir"
Last edited by Lujo on Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Game Philosophy

Postby Fran on Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:07 pm

I don't really want to argue with anything Lujo or TigerKnee said because you're both right and i understand your point of view.
I think we have the same goal in mind, only that you want to achieve it by nerfing broken stuff while I'd powerup the rest so that it's on a similiar level of usefulness.
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Re: Game Philosophy

Postby Lujo on Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:24 pm

Oh, i'd be suggesting buffs, and will be, as soon as the silly stuff (like a tier 2 god mode class, or an perma prep item that destroy the point of the guild having 5 more locker slots) is brought in line.

Plenty of stuff that needs them, anyway. ;)

EDIT: And if you think about it, the new Monk has more flavour than the old one. The old one was sort of encroaching on the Berserker flavour, now, at lvl 2 of kingdom advancment, you have access to guys who go bloodcrazy on the spellcasters, and guys who like to beat up physical types. And all lvl2 classes but the Sorcerer (a bit of a flavour offender there), revolve around having distinct pro's and con's.
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Re: Game Philosophy

Postby q 3 on Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:07 pm

Sorcerer's main con is mana burn - easy enough to fix with a Soul Orb, of course, but it does interfere with two of his abilities.

Along the lines of what I was saying about preparations - I think it would be good to ditch the Purist medal, actually, and replace it with a tiered approach: bronze, silver, gold, etc. You get the first level award for clearing a dungeon with less than 200 gold worth of preparations, second level for less than 100 gold prep, third level is 50 gold, and then gold/platinum/S-rank is the old Purist. That would make the preparation value more relevant beyond the (quickly irrelevant) financial cost, which makes some of the lesser used preps more appealing (e.g., there's now a reason to take the 25 gold or 35 gold prep instead of 50 gold, if it keeps you under the limit), and provides for more variation in the difficulty of goals, allowing players of all skill levels to seek out suitable challenges. Of course, the preparation costs would need to be tinkered with to actually reflect their use - e.g., Avatar Symbol is not nearly as valuable as even the Trisword, at the moment. But that tinkering should probably be done at some point anyway.
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Re: Game Philosophy

Postby Lujo on Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:28 am

Last edited by Lujo on Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:50 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Game Philosophy

Postby dislekcia on Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:30 am

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