DDwiki - User contributions [en]

Alpha:Scoring

2010-09-16T04:37:52Z

Yidda: scores based on absolute value of time difference

Currently the highest scores are achieved for the longest games. The scoring is supposed to reward time '''below''' 15 minutes, but it actually calculates points awarded based on the absolute value of the difference between the 15 minute limit and the completion time, so playing for 148:07 gives a score bonus of 215838, an order of magnitude higher than most games' total score.

===Scoring Categories===
{| border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" style="border-collapse: collapse;" class="sortable"
|- style="background-color: #EEEEEE"
!Category
!Description
!Points
|-
|'''Completion Time'''
|Based on real-world time elapsed. Faster is better.
|30 points per second faster than 15 minute time limit
|-
|'''Damage Dealt'''
|For every point of damage dealt to a monster.
|3 points per point of damage
|-
|'''Boss Killed'''
|For killing the boss. Doesn't count if you petrified him.
|3500 points
|-
|'''Exploration'''
|For each dungeon square uncovered
|4 points per square
|-
|'''Monsters Killed'''
|For each monster killed (includes petrification)
|100 points per monster
|-
|'''Monsters Petrified'''
|For each monster petrified
|250 points per monster
|-
|'''Character Level'''
|Based on the final level of your hero
|300 points per level + 20 * Lvl squared
|-
|}

===Bonus Point Awards===

{| border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" style="border-collapse: collapse;" class="sortable"
|- style="background-color: #EEEEEE"
!Bonus
!Description
!Points
|-
|'''UNSTOPPABLE'''
|All monsters of level 8 or higher killed without petrification*
|2000
|-
|'''FEELING KINDA PARCHED'''
|Never use a health potion
|1000
|-
|'''TANK'''
|Never dropped below 20% of max health
|1000
|-
|'''COCKY, AREN'T YOU'''
|Killed boss before you reached level 8
|1000
|-
|'''EXPLORER'''
|95% or more of the dungeon squares were explored
|800
|-
|'''FIGURED OUT THE TRICK'''
|Performed the "Lemmisi Trick" 5 times or more
|750
|-
|'''BLOODTHIRSTY'''
|Summoned at least 5 monsters
|750
|-
|'''WALL ENTHUSIAST'''
|Petrified at least 5 monsters
|750
|-
|'''WARMONGER'''
|Didn't use any glyph skills
|600
|-
|'''TOOTH AND FREAKING NAIL'''
|Got down to only 1 health at some point after Level 5
|500
|-
|'''LAY OFF THE SPIRITS'''
|Never used a mana potion
|500
|-
|'''SPELLCASTER'''
|Used at least 4 glyphs
|500
|-
|'''PICKING A FIGHT'''
|Summoned at least 1 monster
|200
|-
|'''SLIGHTLY STONED'''
|Petrified at least 1 monster
|200
|-
|'''SURPRISINGLY HANDY'''
|Used LEMMISI spell at least once
|200
|-
|'''OH, THE IRONY'''
|Petrified a gorgon
|100
|-
|'''ALTAR BOY'''
|Earned at least 50 piety from the gods.
|250
|-
|'''HOLIER THAN DROW'''
|You earned more than 100 piety...
|500
|-
|'''ALTRUISM'''
|Finished with 100 unused piety.
|2000
|-
|}
*UNSTOPPABLE also requires that all other monsters are killed or petrified

===Deprecated Awards===
These awards were available in older versions of Desktop Dungeons, but aren't possible to achieve in the current build.

{| border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" style="border-collapse: collapse;" class="sortable"
|- style="background-color: #EEEEEE"
!Bonus
!Description
!Points
|-
|'''IF YOU CAN'T BEAT 'EM, BRICK 'EM'''
|Boss was petrified
|1000
|-
|'''DOUBLE BURN'''
|Petrified Medusa
|500
|-
|}

Feedback

2010-09-09T03:06:32Z

Yidda:

===Game Bugs===
*After finishing the game with the blood mage, you unlock BludTuPowa. BludTuPowa and Mysteria Annur => Instant win. This because activating/deactivating the glyph adds to your MA piety. In effect, you get all MA buffs for free at level 1.
: This has been fixed as of v0.14.

*I'm playing as a Human Warlord in the snake pit. My patron deity is The Glowing Guardian. I've got 56at, 84/84hp, and 8/13mp. I have the BURNDAYRAZ, CYDSTEPP, and LEMMISI spells. I've purchased an item that shows me enemy locations and there is one still hidden. The issue: using the LEMMISI spell does not recharge my MP at all.
: Why would it recharge your MP? It costs 3 and reveals 3 tiles. You'll only get MP back if you're a wizard or have the item that doubles mana regeneration. --[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 23:02, 8 June 2010 (UTC) 

*I made my patron deity the Earthmother, then renounced my faith. In her rage she turned the level to stone. Then I tried to cast WEYTWAT to teleport to a random spot, and it hung indefinitely, unable to find an empty spot to send me.
::Yup, it'd do that. Thanks for finding the edge case! --Dislekcia

*I just finished a game in which I was able to cast LEMMISI without it costing any mana. I'm not sure if this is a bug or an effect from a god (I'm a noob), but I thought I should mention it anyway.
::Ah, that's exactly how it's supposed to work. That's why you get a "Surprisingly Handy" award if you use it at least once...It might be better that you figure it out yourself. :)

*Minor bugs with message displays and altars - 1) If you move on to an altar which also uncovers a boss at the same time, you'll only get the boss's speech and no altar message. 2) If you attack a monster on an altar (summoned by WONAFYT), you'll get the altar message and conversion opportunity without actually stepping on the altar (like the other altar bug below, this only happens if you haven't been to that altar most recently). The first issue arises with shops as well, but not the second. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]
::Just for the record: the attack-on-an-altar also occurs if the monster is there because of the knockback ability, not just from WONAFYT. And it looks like the same thing may happen for monsters on shops? --Tahnan
:::All attack-on-interactive element bugs should be solved in the new interface version. --Dislekcia

*The Scouting Orb's description says it increases sight radius, but it does nothing if your sight radius is already above the normal (half-dragon). The description should probably say e.g. 'increases sight radius to 2 spaces' or something along those lines. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]

*Another bug: I fell into negative XP. I believe the bug is associated with the CYDSTEPP (survive next killing blow) rune, and possibly how it interacts with the Paladin's HP for killing undead ability. I'd just killed a level 5 wraith which was supposed to do enough damage to kill me (and removing my death protection), but instead my protection remained, my HP stayed the same (I think), and I went into negative XP. Later just messing around, I died and lost the protection, recast it with some mana potions, and died again and my XP finally fixed itself, jumping to level 6. Screenshot: http://it-is-law.com/dump/DD-NegXPBug.png --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]
::I had the same thing happen, except with the Glowing Guardian Deity not the CYDSTEPP glyph. I think it has a problem trying to process all the events that occurred (the death of the monster, your not dying, gain of life, gain of attack, gain of exp, and/or anything else). So this may be possible with any character/race.
::same- paladin orc with CYDSTEPP in the crypt. I think I got down to -28 xp before a save-vs-death finally realigned the numbers.--[[User:Sxerks|Sxerks]] 18:14, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

*Bug- by clicking on covered(black) areas you can find and get the deity dialog and worship without ever uncovering the block.--[[User:Sxerks|Sxerks]] 18:14, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::Specifically, this seems to happen after you just went to another altar. In this example: http://it-is-law.com/dump/DD-AltarBug.png if I go to the bottom right altar, I can then click on and activate the top left altar without traveling there. This does not seem to be the case for shops. This is likely related to the other altar bug I posted above. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]
:::Awesome, more info helped us figure out what was up. Fixed. --Dislekcia

*Bug? - Sorry if this is not the right place to report but can't see a better one. Getting error message "Unexpected error occured when running the game" immediately on launch, when trying to play on Netbook. Suppose it might be something to do with supported resolution (on this netbook, resolution is 1024x600). Or something else perhaps? --[[User:Serioustiger|serioustiger]] 19:26, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:: It runs fine on my netbook that runs at the same resolution, so it shouldn't be that. --[[User:Charcoal|Charcoal]] 00:41, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

:: Getting the same error on a desktop system with Windows XP Pro SP3. Core2 Duo CPU, 2 GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 9800 GT running at 1280x1024, the game's folder is directly in the root of drive C: (C:\DeskDungeons_0051).
:::Hmmm. Could be some sort of GM bug, like not finding the right fallback version of DirectX or something. Unexpected errors usually happen in GM games when it tries to do something graphics card related and can't figure out how. Will probably turn on logging in the next version so that we can see what's up. --Dislekcia

*Bug - I was standing on the HALPME glyph and accidently pressed WEYTWAT (teleport glyph). I got teleported but HELPME stayed in the "on the ground" slot. So i, being cheater am i, just happily added to my slots. ;)
:: It does seem to at least delete the glyph from the original spot, though. Alas, I was hoping it might be cloning it... but it's not. [[User:Neongrey|Neongrey]] 02:05, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

*Bug - I've not been able to get the game to run at all on my Windows XP system. It gives the loading screen, tells me it's loading stuff for about ten seconds, and then the screen simply closes itself with no error messages at all. I'm running a standard XP system (32 bit mode) in 800x600 resolution. Suggestions? Anyone else have the same problem?
::Do you have DirectX installed? If so, which version? --Dislekcia

*Bug - if you reveal a boss monster by going onto an altar or shop, the altar/shop prompt will be visible for a split second before it's replaced by the boss monster prompt. It would be slightly cleaner to not show the altar/shop prompt at all. --[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 15:03, 5 June 2010 (UTC) 

*Bug - it is possible to 'phantom' attack an enemy, if you click an open tile, and before the move completely registers have your mouse over an enemy. It'll count as striking the enemy, and can even strike an enemy two or more tiles from where you actually clicked to! Very annoying to die to this. --[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 15:03, 5 June 2010 (UTC) 

*Bug - I encountered a divide by zero error when playing through the Library as a human warrior. I was following Taurog as a deity, and I think the specific cause of the problem was selecting the Mageshield (correct name?) boon which reduced my maximum mana by 2 when my maximum was already only 2 points. The following error message was listed in the log that appeared, 4 times.

ERROR in
action number 1
of Draw Event
for object ManaDisplay:
Error in code at line 28:
fraction = Hero.mana / Hero.max_mana;
at position 30: Division by 0.

--[[User:Xrobbedgex|Xrobbedgex]] 19:21, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

*Bug - The item "Stone heart" (2hp per level when destroying a wall) does not work for the Half Dragon knockback destroying a wall.--[[User:Sxerks|Sxerks]] 16:54, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

* 0.415 - Warlord gets WONAFYT, not CYDSTEPP

*Bug - Playing as Transmuter, I started worshipping Binlor. I got my piety up to 80, prayed for the level 10 boon, then proceeded to kill the boss. The game didn't tell me I had won, and retiring doesn't display Transmuter as a class that has finished the dungeon. I did this twice, once killing every creature but not killing the boss last, and once killing the boss last. Both times, the game didn't acknowledge my win. Not sure if this is a feature of the Binlor boon, or if Transmuter just doesn't display differently when it finishes the normal dungeon like the other classes, but it feels buggy, so I feel like I should say. [[User:Tomsmizzle|Tomsmizzle]] 15:01, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
: Wait, you played normal dungeon? AFAIK, only base 12 classes get special marks after its completing; Transmuter, Crusader and Tinker aren't get any. Bonus classes get marks after Crypt, Library, Snake Pit and Factory

===Other Game Issues (Balance, Interface, etc.)===

*I've played the new version extensively. I've unlocked everything and I have to say it's considerably worse than the last version. This version is all about luck and that doesn't make it much fun. There are far too many games that are unwinnable, and I'm not talking about the start (although that's a huge problem also). Too many classes depend on the right deity appearing. On that subject way too many of the deities are gimmicky and useless 90% of the time. Earthmother (can't kill natural creatures, who cares she's rubbish anyway), Tiki (must kill in one shot), tarog and bindor (no magic), etc. They all have something. This would be fine, if there were viable options for classes. A wizard with tarog or bindor is screwed--this is just one example. Retiring ad nauseum isn't much fun. Shops are useless--it's always the same crap, the good stuff never comes up--and because of the above deity problems, this can make or break a run.
** I've got to concur with this assessment. Basically too many gods are useless, Dracul, Tiki etc. because they can't be used as part of a strategy, where you'll plan to get this glyph and do that and then boom you have some advantage, and the penalties they give are far greater than the benefits. I've successfully used the plantation boon at level 2, being sure not to lock myself in, but still not gotten enough of an advantage out of it to win the game. The new Pactmaker, on the other hand, is my bread and butter. [[User:Yidda|Yidda]] 18:55, 20 August 2010 (UTC) -yidda
** It used to be that I'd use Jehora, Taurog, Misteria, or Binlor etc. all the time. Now I only use the Pactmaker. -yidda [[User:Yidda|Yidda]] 18:55, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
** OK, after a little more play on the new version, I have successfully used Jehora, the Pactmaker, Taurog once or twice, and Dracul twice, once with the Vampire, and once without. I've also beaten the game as an atheist, but I think the other 5 Gods could use some spicing up. [[User:Yidda|Yidda]] 03:06, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

These problems are magnified in the campaign. You put the classes in difficult maps, the first isn't too tough, but it still requires a good deity or lucky shop to get the health high enough to take a hit from the boss. It's the first one, not a big deal. But then you put the wizard in a terrible map. You almost require MA deity and the fireball glyph to stand a chance. This is frustrating, because you can play perfectly, and lose. This is terrible, terrible game design. Then, should the stars align, and you beat the dragon boss, you get yet another difficult dungeon where you need luck to get by. Three times lucky, with the wonky random rules you've got in place means that the game isn't rewarding at all. Why not let us pick the class and race like every other dungeon?

It just seems like you have all these great gameplay mechanics in place, but then because of your decisions on deity and shop rolls, you take them away from the player. Focus on rewarding player skill/strategy and less on lucky rolls and you'll have something here.

*About Health and Attack powerups (the kind scattered about the dungeon): Can we get some explanation on these things? After noticing that the attack power up does nothing for a level 1 character, I've been holding off on getting them. Likewise, the health power ups give more health at higher levels. What I want to know is, should I hold off on getting them or do they scale to level even after you've gotten them? --golden_cow2
::The attack power ups give you a 10% percentage bonus over your base damage per power up, so this extra damage will raise as your base damage does. So get them as soon as your strategy allows you. --Lanis
::Likewise the health bonus also scales with your level (1 MAX HP per level, the same as Dwarf glyph conversion). No need to hold off. --fall_ark
:::The Health Bonus should probably be shown when you hover over your health as it does for damage, then, to at least partially clear up the issue. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]

*I've found it really evil that the Escape key closes the entire game instantly. I've already lost at least 2 characters from tapping escape trying to cancel a spell :/ (I'm aware right click cancels, but habits from other games don't die so easily...) --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]
::Agreed. I lost 5 or so promising characters because of that. Changing the 'instant close' key to something like F12 and having the ESC key one ask if you want to exit would work better and without functionality loss. --Lanis
::Agreed again. I just started playing and hit escape thinking it would be used for options or something and poof. Ugh.
:More keyboard-friendly controls will certainly make the game better! e.g. Arrow keys for moving, 5/6 for potions, SPACE/ENTER/ESC for shop and altar conversations. So on. --fall_ark
:::Absolutely, I just listed the most pressing issue first =) Even if the mouse is still required in the end (though it probably doesn't need to be), numpad movement would be a definitely improvement. I'm thinking Y/N for shops and altars to make it clear what your selection is - though space could also default to a 'no' response. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]
::Wait. Instead of remapping the Escape key, just make it pop up a screen that asks if you really want to quit the game. Alternatively, make it so that holding down Escape for two seconds closes the whole application. --HydroKirby
::I also like a full keyboard control, azeqdwxc for moving, keybinded potions, yay and nay etc. The only point of using the mouse would be, in some cases, to prevent the discovering of some tiles, but if you really want to it's still possible to put something like selecting a tile with arrow keys and enter to go there. [[User:Rex4|Rex4]] 20:33, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

*The current gold system is essentially a pointless grinding mechanic - after each game, load up Goblin Wizard or whatever, go grab some quick cash, then start playing again. I don't currently have a great idea to replace it with, but the implementation as-is adds unfun grinding time without adding any actual thought or decision to the process. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]
::Removing the shared gold between runs and making gold coins give you more gold depending on your race/class/max gold should be enough. Basically, a gold-hunting race/class combo should allow you to be able to buy one or two good items more than other classes under the same circumstances. Now not only this removes the gold grinding, but it'll allow people to use goblins for serious ranked games, for example. --Lanis
::Concurred. I would suggest adding a "Minimum Gold" bonus (or simply replace the Max Gold bonus). There should still be a little room for gold hoarding for new players though, like Max Gold = Minimum Gold + 50 or something. --fall_ark

*The chances of getting a completely unwinnable game are too high. If it happens occasionally that's fine, but right now it's fairly common and at least some check to help avoid these situations would be desirable. Example games:
:http://it-is-law.com/dump/Unbeatable1.png
:http://it-is-law.com/dump/Unbeatable2.png
:http://it-is-law.com/dump/Unbeatable3.png
:My proposal: map out the monsters and runes in area that can be reached by a new character during level generation; mapping should 'go through' level 1 and 2 monsters but treat higher level monsters as walls, so to speak. There must be one of: a) Any of the Passwall, Teleport Monster, or Teleport Self glyphs are reachable; b) At least five level 1 monsters available to fight; c) At least two level 1 monsters and one level 2 monster; or d) The Summon Monster glyph is reachable and at least five total level 1 monsters are on the board (if this is guaranteed already, simply make it a straight glyph check as with [a].)
:The idea isn't to make it easier - just to remove impossible scenarios. You might still have to, say, use your starting health potion to take out a level 2 or whatever which is fine. This won't remove all unwinnable situations, but should remove a significant percentage of them without making anything easier the rest of the time. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]

*Worshiping Pactmaker as an unimproved Rogue results in instant death. Is this intended? --Azeltir
:Pactmaker takes 5 Base Damage and 5 Max Health so an unimproved Rogue will indeed die instantly due to Health drop to zero. Most characters "unimproved" would be screwed though, since your base damage is now likely zero. --fall_ark

*Nidhogg is supposed to be a dragon; the World Serpent is actually actually Jormungand. There's some Norse mythology for ya!

*I bought the rebirth-item (Restore health to full) on a level 9 Human Crusader while having death protection up, and got healed no health at all. Afterwards I attacked the boss and died where 300% of my attack damage would've been enough to kill it, but I did not get the last-blow Crusaders are supposed to. --Amadi

*Glyph balance {[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]}:
:*Teleport Monster is just worse than Remove Wall; it costs more mana and can potentially relocate the monster somewhere inconvenient, while Remove Wall also has other benefits (such as opening up more total blocks that can be explored). I'd keep Remove Wall's 8 mana cost, but reduce Teleport Monster to 5.
:*Teleport Self is also weak, and primarily only useful for getting outside of an early-game bubble of high-level monsters; I think it would still be weak at 4 mana, but certainly a little more useable.
:*Blood to Power is rather weak at high levels (right now it seems primarily useful for Level 1 Sorcerers); it's a little less clean, but perhaps making the cost 1.5hp per level rounded up would work? (2/3/5/6/8/9/11/12/14/15 instead of 2/4/6/8/10/12/14/16/18/20) I'm not entirely happy with that change and there might be a better option, but that's all that comes to mind for it immediately.
:*Poison is clearly to strong as it stands, but merely raising the mana cost is not enough to properly balance it; something more fundamental needs to be changed to fix Poison.
:*Petrify isn't especially useful right now either, as it doesn't help you get past any monsters and it gives you no XP for kills. This, of course, also ties in with the usefulness of the Earth Mother God (which currently is primarily good for giving a Transmuter lots of blocks to heal from). One option would be to simply make petrify kills give you half the level of the monster you killed; this would probably require an additional restriction such as being unable to petrify anything more than 1 level above you? There's surely some other options here too, but it does need something to make it more appealing. It might also still count as a kill for Mystera since you are essentially killing with Magic (would need to be tested in-game for balance).

*Monster balance {[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]} - monsters should be fairly close in average power level so that games aren't randomly especially easy or hard simply due to the monsters that randomly spawned; obviously this will still vary quite a bit depending on class, but currently there are some monsters that clearly stand out as strong or weak in general:
:*Animated Armor - Should these be almost strictly killable by Fireball only? The damage might be lowered a bit (160% -> 150%) to make it at least somewhat feasible (though still painful) to kill them in melee. On a related note, XP Gains should perhaps have a stepdown or raise up less rapidly based on level; it is a neat trick to go from level 1 to 6 in a single kill, but is also pretty overpowered. The first 2 steps (+2 and +6) are perfect and should remain as is. Past that, perhaps a flat +4 (or even +6) bonus per level difference to prevent it from getting so high so quickly? I'd like to see fireballing a high-level animated armor remain good, just not insanely good.
:*Gorgon, Goat, Bandit, Imp (to a lesser extent) - The reduced health is a huge deal for these monsters; I love seeing these guys around because it's often trivial to kill one of these monsters 1, 2, or even 3 levels above me. Gorgons sound threatening at first, but in practice they are pushovers for almost all classes and merely serve as a lucky XP bonus (*worth noting is that they can be bothersome to some of the currently strongest classes like Vampire, but still generally aren't too threatening). Bandits are in the same camp; they have nasty side effects, but it's usually easy to set up the kill right before leveling and snag some bonus XP in the process. Imps are more minor since they're only in the Library and Blinking can be an effective escape at times. I'm thinking:
::*Gorgon: damage 100%->115%; this means they do enough damage to level 4-6 players (considering some levels of health boosts) to reduce them below half HP, making their death gaze more threatening; this emphasizes their special ability while making them a bit less of a pushover. Possibly increase health 70%->75%, but this is probably unnecessary with the damage increase.
::*Bandit & Imp: I love seeing Bandits right now because they're almost guaranteed bonus XP. Part of the problem is that their negatives are so strong that you only want to fight them to level up on, and then their reduced stats make it easy to do just that. 80%->85% health seems like a good idea here, though I haven't done the math to see exactly what situations this would affect. Likewise with Imp, simply boosting the HP one notch seems like a good change but it'd need to be tested (or numbers run) to say for sure.
::*Goat: This poor guy is a strictly worse Golem! This is clearly subpar. Even against spellcasters they're quite easy, because they are essentially 100%/100% ability-less mobs in that case. I'd probably look at raising the attack at least 100%->110% (possibly as high as 120%), and raise their health from 75%->80% to make their magic resist matter a little more (could bump the resist from 25% to 30% instead, though this means level 1 spellcasters get an especially big hit from the resist which may be fine). Even with these changes they'd be worse than golems in most cases, but it'd at least be a step in the right direction; they could be buffed again later if deemed appropriate.
:*Goo Blob - The strongest enemy in the game. Even most spellcasters are using enough physical attacks that these guys are somewhat daunting; to a pure melee character, they're like a 100%/200% mob which is insanely strong. The current monster design treats magical resist and physical resist as pretty equal, but physical resist is much more powerful. The simple fix would be to reduce their HP, at least 100%->90%; another option would be to make them magic vulnerable, so magic does 25% more damage to them (either of these changes makes Fireball enough better on these guys that they are no longer so strong across the board). A 3rd option would be reducing the physical resist 50%->40%, though I haven't done any math to figure the ramifications of that. (Similar arguments apply to the Tower of Goo, of course, though I haven't had a chance to go into depth for the bosses yet.)
:*Vampire - The life steal is a weak effect, and after they do that they've got nothing special left and are mere 100%/100%s. I'd suggest either increasing attack slightly (from 100%->110% to 100%->120%) or increasing the amount of life steal a bit (40%->50%), or possibly both if they are still weak. Worth noting is that as long as these mobs only appear in the Crypt it is more acceptable for them to just be weaker, so like the Imp it's not as important to tweak Vampires as other monsters.
:*Zombie - Definitely on the strong side, though not as drastically as the Goo Blobs. I'd reduce their HP slightly, possibly only 150%->145% but probably 150%->140% (compare to Dragonspawn).
*TGG And The Crypt -- I'd suggest straight up making TGG altars not spawn in the crypt. Finding one early essentially gives you an auto-win for whatever class you're playing with; it's simply way too strong. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]

*What's the point of Dracul coming up for every class if only vampires can worship him? Seems like a waste of altar most of the times.
::Anyone can worship Dracul. Vampires can worship him without penalty. Try joining him when you're not level 1; you lose 10hp but then get the benefits from there on.

===Game Feedback===

* I like this game, but there are a few issues that hurt the game IMO.
::Why not let us pick our deity? For some classes in certain dungeons, a specific deity is almost required to beat it. It doesn't make for much fun when you are constantly retiring and restarting to get the deity you require. At least, show the locations of all deities. It's also frustrating that useless deities are so common (eg. Earth Mother, Dracul with any other class other than Vamp).
::Once you have all items, classes, races, etc, why are the most powerful items so rare? At that point the player is dedicated and just might want to have fun, but powerful items never come up, especially when you want a specific power item with a specific class. Regardless, even if the full game isn't unlocked the player has to work hard to get these items, let them have them. This is supposed to be fun, right?

*I like this game a lot :)

*This game is what I was looking for since years! In order to introduce roguelikes to my 6 years old son, I would be interested in translate it in french. You can e-mail me if it sounds interesting for you !

My today exploit : the Priest Massacre : I'm not quite sure that Benedict XVI will bless that ;) [[File:PriestMassacre.png|right|thumb|150px|Priest Massacre]] --[[User:Lepoulpe303|Lepoulpe303]] 15:08, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

*I found the Rogue class to be a bit underbalanced. Most bosses have an attack high enough to kill him in one hit, so, in order to kill them, I must spamm sidestep or fireball and that destroys the feeling of playing as a rogue. --[[User:NickDX|NickDX]] 20:07, 30 March 2010
::Actually, Rogue is one of the most powerful classes at present and is overpowered rather than underpowered - surpassed only by Vampire and possibly Monk (which people have also thought too weak for some reason). Try perhaps getting your HP high enough to survive one strike (e.g. Dwarf) or getting your attack high enough to slay the boss in a single stroke. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]

*Is it possible to actually beat the factory with the wizard class? Not using BURNDAYRAZ with Mystera... The meat man is mostly unkillable. A 50 damage wizard would have to hit him 20 times! And we have the golem boss too...
**It's easier than you think. Remember that you know where all the Glyphs are and can thus check what has spawned for you in any given game easily, so you can restart quickly if you don't get what you want. Even failing that, don't treat the Wizard as if magic is his only method of dealing damage. Wizard's melee damage is quite respectable after the 3 Attack Powerups, especially if you play a human. And if you find BURNDAYRAZ fast, then you're ready to use Animated Armors to level up very quickly. Don't use Mystera, in any case: having lots of mana only matters when you use a Mana Potion or gain a level; your regen per tile is unchanged, and losing out on your physical damage in a dungeon with the Iron Man is a very bad idea.--[[Special:Contributions/94.3.189.97|94.3.189.97]] 23:16, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
***I can't seem to find the condition in which you could win this challenge... Even as a human wizard, using halpme and iphalseek I could only kill Tony Stark, at the cost of all my mana AND health potions, leaving ALL the maze explored and the Meat Man still unscathed...
****At L7 (which is reachable from about 3-5 kills if you use Animated Armor carefully), you'll likely have around 40 Attack, 84 Health and 12-13 Mana. HALPMEH will heal 21 HP for 2 Mana at that point, whilst BURNDAYRAZ will deal 28 damage for 5 Mana. If you only use melee and healing, Iron Man will be dead after exploring about 30-40 tiles (which is about 8-10 squares of an unexplored corridor). You'd also need less tiles to do it at L8, but that would require a few more kills which you may or may not have access to. SMM is better left until you're L8 or 9, since you'll need something along the lines of 60 tiles to kill him. LEMMISI can be useful to get the necessary regen, and none of this is taking into account helpful items from shops (like Fine Sword or Tower Shield), use of Potions, or other Glyphs like BYSSEPS (very effective extra damage for minimal mana cost). In short, the strategy is simply to level up fast and start your run as early as possible, and knowing where the Glyphs are is very helpful in pulling that off. --[[Special:Contributions/94.3.189.97|94.3.189.97]] 04:10, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
*****So it's actually easy... ...if you have Halmpmeh, burnandrayz, lemmisi and 3 high leveled animated armors sitting right next to you. That's does not sound like a specific situation at all...
******Again, knowing where the Glyphs are allows you to check them quickly. And HALPMEH and LEMMISI are merely helpful, not *required*. BURNDAYRAZ is guaranteed to be somewhere on the map, and finding high levelled Animated Armors isn't difficult. The only real gamebreaker of a glyph to be looking for is APHEELSIK, and that appears in at almost half the games you play by the time the Factory is unlocked. The point isn't that *every* Factory run is going to be easy for the Wizard -- it's that it's easy for the Wizard to search for favourable conditions.
******Just to prove my point, I started another Factory game with a Human Wizard. I succeeded on that same game. I had a bit of luck in that BURNDAYRAZ spawned near me, as did a L8 Animated Armor. I did not find APHEELSIK during this game, but I did get HALPMEH. The only things I bought from the shops were a Spoon and Fine Sword, and I found an altar to Jehora after a bit of exploration as well. I also found LEMMISI, but I completed the game without using it. I ended up killing SMM at L7 and Iron Man at L8. I finished off both bosses whilst only exploring just over 75% of the map, never using LEMMISI, and never drinking a Health or Mana Potion. Sure, I got a relatively advantageous start, but I didn't get APHEELSIK (which meant SMM was a battle of attrition). Jehora helped, of course, but it was merely one of many things I could've found to lead me to success, especially given what I ended up *not* having to use. So yeah, you don't need a perfect game to beat the Factory with the Wizard.
*******I also just beat factory with Gnome Wizard. No APHEELSIK, but HALPMEH + BYSSEPS went the distance on both bosses after using Pactmaker + L8 Animated armor as my first kill. I was swinging for 72 a pop, and finished with 52 hp, 14 MP, a mana pot, and a Zombie Dog still active on me.[[Special:Contributions/78.101.75.189|78.101.75.189]]
*Also, Vampire is absurdly overpowered. You don't even need luck, I just had a game where I had to waste all my health potions at level 1, but after I got the fireball, 100 health points converted to 28 damage each fireball could destroy both bosses in the library without the need for any item, god or skill.

*I don't get "The Pactmaker", it takes 5 max HP and DMG, but only grants +1 max HP and DMG per level, this way, if you get it on lvl 2 (worshiping the pactmaker at level 1 is mostly impractical), you'll only have the real benefits at level 8.
Since most boss fights are at level 7-8, you'll get only +1 damage and +1 max hp. Sure, the exp boost is nice, but even if the exp boost were absurdly high, and you could get to level 10, you would only get +3 damage and +3 max hp.
Compare it with taurog, in which killing half of the 39 monster on the map, would grant you +60% atk, or even +90% if you found all the glyphs. Heck, even Binlor Ironshield at level 2 would grant you +6 damage at level 8, and you don't lose any HP.
The increase in experience gain is overrated. The pactmaker must be booster, a suggestion would be having the character gain +2 max hp and damage per level and +2 experience per monster. That would prove a very strong god.
**The pactmaker is actually quite powerful in the right situations. You're overlooking that he also boosts max mana too. In addition, if you get enough health buffs or are using the right class, you can pretty much ignore Pactmaker's drawback at level 1 and pick it up then. This gives (at level 10, which pactmaker can actually make doable) a total gain of 4 max hp, 4 max damage and 9 max mana. The latter is what can make him very nice. I used pactmaker to finish two different dungeons. Unlike Taurog or Mystra which give bigger versions of their individual buffs, you can use both your magic and melee skills together. With the right class/race combo, this can be a very nasty god. [[Special:Contributions/78.101.75.189|78.101.75.189]]
***Update: Just used pactmaker to finish Factory with Gnome Wizard. Finished with 50 health, 14 mana, and a mana pot, plus a death protection effect. I was using BYSSEPS to swing for 72 a pop, healing with HALPME or potions, rinse repeat. I was level 10 thanks to grabbing Pactmaker before killng a single mob and using the Nuke & Explore trick on a level 8 Animated armor as my first kill, giving me a massive starting bonus. I still had about 1/5 of the dungeon unexplored as a backup reserve.[[Special:Contributions/78.101.75.189|78.101.75.189]]

*I don't trust the tiki took too. I just played a rogue in the cript, and killed 35 out of 39 monsters without beeing hit, having a 55% dodge chance to face the bosses and some level 9 monsters. Having milked the most out of the god, it actually didn't help me very much. I know he doesn't have any restrictions and gives you a free health potion, but I got the feeling that he's a weak god.
Maybe increasing the dodge gain to 1.5% or even 2%, or maybe you could get free health potions for each 5 kills without taking damage.
**I agree here. I haven't gotten Tiki to contribute to a boss kill, because you wind up having to rely on luck for the final boss kill and it usually doesn't work, since you often need it or 3 times in a row, whereas with a 50+ mana pool from the arcane god you can just spam fireball, even on magic resistant monsters.
**I disagree entirely. I think Tiki is one of the best gods: unlike almost every other god, theres no downside to worshipping him. Free health pot = awesome bonus. In one Library run, I started off with a Rogue, and by the end of the game my dodge rate was nearly 60%. Taking out the bosses was a cinch (although I did use cydstepp to help with the Wizard boss, admittedly).
***It IS completely based by luck, I had the same run as you, with a Rogue at the Crypt with 60% dodge and, even with cydsteep I could dodge the Wraith only once in five hits...

Talk:Alpha:Classes

2010-09-09T02:39:00Z

Yidda:

I've noticed something I think is different about the Assassin class from previous versions now, or this may just be a retooling of First Strike in general. When both I and a creature, as an Assassin using the ability, have first strike now, and I outlevel them, the game acts as if I'm the only one with first strike. This is an insane buff to the Assassin's Instant Death surround ability- this means that anything lower level you surround, perhaps via ENDISWALL, instantly becomes fodder for the level-up trick. I'm wary to say it's a retool of First Strike, because I noticed this in a game where I not only converted the First Strike Glyph, but I was worshiping Jehora. She never got mad at me for the one sided fights that resulted from the surround and outlevel combo- so this may just be that an Assassin's surround isn't so much First Strike as it is a "guaranteed First Strike no matter what anyone, including a god, has to say about it".

It's that, or an Assassin's instant death ability overrides First Strike on enemies completely. This seems like an easy, logical explanation.

-----------------------

Seems like something would be better than nothing on these pages. Post any tips/insight on each class you have? --[[User:Cls4lions|Cls4lions]] 12:30, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I feel like the special races should be treated as classes rather than races, with their info on this page and a brief reference to it on the race page.

Berzerker Mageslay:
What does the Attack +30% mean exactly? That spells (i.e. BURNDEYRAZ) does 30% more damage all the time?

Talk:Alpha:Scoring

2010-09-08T02:35:35Z

Yidda:

I routinely have times greater than 45 minutes, and it seems like the longer the game, the greater the points. I once had a 500,000 point transmuter game, that I thought must have been a mistake or glitch, but now I wonder if I just left it overnight... oh, these were unranked. That's got to be it.
[[User:Yidda|Yidda]] 02:34, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Alpha:Scoring

2010-09-08T02:34:58Z

Yidda: Created page with 'I routinely have times greater than 45 minutes, and it seems like the longer the game, the greater the points. I once had a 500,000 point transmuter game, that I thought must ha…'

I routinely have times greater than 45 minutes, and it seems like the longer the game, the greater the points. I once had a 500,000 point transmuter game, that I thought must have been a mistake or glitch, but now I wonder if I just left it overnight...
[[User:Yidda|Yidda]] 02:34, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Alpha:Level

2010-09-01T13:34:43Z

Yidda: Put basic player level stats up front, expanded "Gaining Levels" heading

Every denizen of the [[dungeon]] in Desktop Dungeons, including the player and dungeon [[monsters]], has a level represented by the small number in its lower-right corner. A units level is a rough indication of its strength relative to the player and other monsters. Levels range from 1 through to 10, with strength increasing roughly linearly up to 9. Level 10 enemies are [[bosses]].

== Player Levels ==

The player starts at level 1, with a base HP of 10, and base Damage of 5. The player character gains 5 base damage and 10 base HP for every additional level.

== Enemy levels ==

The base stats for basic enemies as they level up are as follows:
*Base health is ''(n + 3)^2 - 10'' where ''n'' is the monster's level.
*Base attack is ''(n + 3) × (n + 4) / 2 - 3'' where ''n'' is the monster's level.

{| border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" style="border-collapse: collapse;"
|- style="background-color: #EEEEEE"
!Level
!Base Attack
!Base Health
|-
| 1 || 3 || 6
|-
| 2 || 7 || 15
|-
| 3 || 12 || 26
|-
| 4 || 18 || 39
|-
| 5 || 25 || 54
|-
| 6 || 33 || 71
|-
| 7 || 42 || 90
|-
| 8 || 52 || 111
|-
| 9 || 63 || 134
|}

Different enemies will have different percentages of these base stats. [[Bosses]] have entirely different stat ratios to their lower level counterparts. Furthermore, Enemy Attack and Health stats before your first 'win' are dropped to 80% of normal, while Ranked games have the Attack and Health stats increased to 120% of normal.

== Gaining Levels and Bonus Experience ==

The player character has the ability to increase his level by gaining experience. Experience is gained by defeating monsters in [[combat]]. Unless modified by [[classes|class]], [[races|race]], [[gods|deity]] or [[items|item]] bonuses, experience is gained as follows:
*Experience equal to the defeated monster's level
*Bonus experience for monsters of a higher level to the player, calculated as:
:''n × (n + 1)'' where ''n'' is the difference between the player's level and the monster's level.
{| border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" style="border-collapse: collapse;"
|- style="background-color: #EEEEEE"
!Difference between levels
!Bonus experience
|-
| 0 || 0
|-
| 1 || 2
|-
| 2 || 6
|-
| 3 || 12
|-
| 4 || 20
|-
| 5 || 30
|-
| 6 || 42
|-
| 7 || 56
|-
| 8 || 72
|-
| 9 || 90
|}
*The player character gains 5 base damage and 10 base HP for every level achieved.

== Required experience per level ==

{| border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" style="border-collapse: collapse;"
|- style="background-color: #EEEEEE"
!To reach level
!Experience required
!Total required
|-
| 1 || 0 || 0
|-
| 2 || 5 || 5
|-
| 3 || 10 || 15
|-
| 4 || 15 || 30
|-
| 5 || 20 || 50
|-
| 6 || 25 || 75
|-
| 7 || 30 || 105
|-
| 8 || 35 || 140
|-
| 9 || 40 || 180
|-
| 10 || 45 || 225
|}

Alpha:Vampire(race)

2010-08-30T02:51:03Z

Yidda:

===Skills===

* Gains 7 Base Damage per level, instead of 5
* No Health Regen - you lose 1 HP per tile explored instead
* First Strike
* Immune to Poison
* Immune to Mana Burn
* Can sense the locations of all monsters of equal or lower level
* Spells cost Health instead of Mana
* Restores 10% of Max Health from blood pools
* 25% Life Steal, gains an additional 5% for every glyph converted
* Every next spell cost one more HP, than last; cost sets to normal after hand-to-hand fight
* HALPMEH doesn't work.

Life Steal causes you to get back a percentage of your Total Damage you dealt as Health when you use a melee attack. So if you hit a monster for 50 damage, you'd recover 12 Health with 25% Life Steal.

===General Strategy===

Vampire is tricky at the start; once you've gained a couple of levels though, your increased Health and Damage makes taking on almost any enemy a breeze. Also, First Strike does not let you go before other enemies with First Strike, and the lack of regen means that Gorgons can pose a minor threat if you're not careful. The increased Base Damage means that effects that increase your Damage Bonus are even more potent as well.

Once you get BURNDAYRAZ, the Vampire can beat bosses almost immediately, because they draw mana from health, and at level 4, you can have, say, 52 health, which gives you 6 casts: 52-6-7-8-9-10-11=1, where each cast costs one additional HP, for a total of 96 damage, which is enough to take out most level 7 monsters, possibly level 8 if you can take advantage of First Strike.

Vampire is the only race/class in the game, that don't need exploration control - actually, you should explore as much of dungeon as you can. After first exploration you could start attacking - even with 1 HP you can kill a bunch of monsters. Level up will heal you; from this moment you can attack monsters 1-2 level higher than yours.
One thing that you really need is BURNDAYRAZ. Other glyphs usually can be converted for lifesteal.
Try to save bloodpools.
First two-three levels is hardest. Use you potions - on high level you usually wouldn't need them. Factory is exception, though - save all potions you can.

=== Deity Choice===

Be careful with Glowing Guardian; praying to him will heal you, but first attack will make him denounce you - because of lifesteal. Still, one healing can save the game

===Challenge Modes===

Alpha:Vampire(race)

2010-08-30T02:32:15Z

Yidda:

===Skills===

* Gains 7 Base Damage per level, instead of 5
* No Health Regen - you lose 1 HP per tile explored instead
* First Strike
* Immune to Poison
* Immune to Mana Burn
* Can sense the locations of all monsters of equal or lower level
* Spells cost Health instead of Mana
* Restores 10% of Max Health from blood pools
* 25% Life Steal, gains an additional 5% for every glyph converted
* Every next spell cost one more HP, than last; cost sets to normal after hand-to-hand fight
* HALPMEH doesn't work.

Life Steal causes you to get back a percentage of your Total Damage you dealt as Health when you use a melee attack. So if you hit a monster for 50 damage, you'd recover 12 Health with 25% Life Steal.

===General Strategy===

Vampire is tricky at the start; once you've gained a couple of levels though, your increased Health and Damage makes taking on almost any enemy a breeze. Also, First Strike does not let you go before other enemies with First Strike, and the lack of regen means that Gorgons can pose a minor threat if you're not careful. The increased Base Damage means that effects that increase your Damage Bonus are even more potent as well.

Once you get BURNDAYRAZ, the Vampire can beat bosses almost immediately, because they draw mana from health, and at level 4, you can have, say, 52 health, which gives you 6 casts: 52-6-7-8-9-10-11=1, where each cast costs one additional HP, for a total of 120 damage, which is enough to take out most level 8 monsters, possibly level 9 if you can take advantage of First Strike.

Vampire is the only race/class in the game, that don't need exploration control - actually, you should explore as much of dungeon as you can. After first exploration you could start attacking - even with 1 HP you can kill a bunch of monsters. Level up will heal you; from this moment you can attack monsters 1-2 level higher than yours.
One thing that you really need is BURNDAYRAZ. Other glyphs usually can be converted for lifesteal.
Try to save bloodpools.
First two-three levels is hardest. Use you potions - on high level you usually wouldn't need them. Factory is exception, though - save all potions you can.

=== Deity Choice===

Be careful with Glowing Guardian; praying to him will heal you, but first attack will make him denounce you - because of lifesteal. Still, one healing can save the game

===Challenge Modes===

Feedback

2010-08-20T18:55:39Z

Yidda:

===Game Bugs===
*After finishing the game with the blood mage, you unlock BludTuPowa. BludTuPowa and Mysteria Annur => Instant win. This because activating/deactivating the glyph adds to your MA piety. In effect, you get all MA buffs for free at level 1.

*I'm playing as a Human Warlord in the snake pit. My patron deity is The Glowing Guardian. I've got 56at, 84/84hp, and 8/13mp. I have the BURNDAYRAZ, CYDSTEPP, and LEMMISI spells. I've purchased an item that shows me enemy locations and there is one still hidden. The issue: using the LEMMISI spell does not recharge my MP at all.
: Why would it recharge your MP? It costs 3 and reveals 3 tiles. You'll only get MP back if you're a wizard or have the item that doubles mana regeneration. --[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 23:02, 8 June 2010 (UTC) 

*I made my patron deity the Earthmother, then renounced my faith. In her rage she turned the level to stone. Then I tried to cast WEYTWAT to teleport to a random spot, and it hung indefinitely, unable to find an empty spot to send me.
::Yup, it'd do that. Thanks for finding the edge case! --Dislekcia

*I just finished a game in which I was able to cast LEMMISI without it costing any mana. I'm not sure if this is a bug or an effect from a god (I'm a noob), but I thought I should mention it anyway.
::Ah, that's exactly how it's supposed to work. That's why you get a "Surprisingly Handy" award if you use it at least once...It might be better that you figure it out yourself. :)

*Minor bugs with message displays and altars - 1) If you move on to an altar which also uncovers a boss at the same time, you'll only get the boss's speech and no altar message. 2) If you attack a monster on an altar (summoned by WONAFYT), you'll get the altar message and conversion opportunity without actually stepping on the altar (like the other altar bug below, this only happens if you haven't been to that altar most recently). The first issue arises with shops as well, but not the second. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]
::Just for the record: the attack-on-an-altar also occurs if the monster is there because of the knockback ability, not just from WONAFYT. And it looks like the same thing may happen for monsters on shops? --Tahnan
:::All attack-on-interactive element bugs should be solved in the new interface version. --Dislekcia

*The Scouting Orb's description says it increases sight radius, but it does nothing if your sight radius is already above the normal (half-dragon). The description should probably say e.g. 'increases sight radius to 2 spaces' or something along those lines. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]

*Another bug: I fell into negative XP. I believe the bug is associated with the CYDSTEPP (survive next killing blow) rune, and possibly how it interacts with the Paladin's HP for killing undead ability. I'd just killed a level 5 wraith which was supposed to do enough damage to kill me (and removing my death protection), but instead my protection remained, my HP stayed the same (I think), and I went into negative XP. Later just messing around, I died and lost the protection, recast it with some mana potions, and died again and my XP finally fixed itself, jumping to level 6. Screenshot: http://it-is-law.com/dump/DD-NegXPBug.png --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]
::I had the same thing happen, except with the Glowing Guardian Deity not the CYDSTEPP glyph. I think it has a problem trying to process all the events that occurred (the death of the monster, your not dying, gain of life, gain of attack, gain of exp, and/or anything else). So this may be possible with any character/race.
::same- paladin orc with CYDSTEPP in the crypt. I think I got down to -28 xp before a save-vs-death finally realigned the numbers.--[[User:Sxerks|Sxerks]] 18:14, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

*Bug- by clicking on covered(black) areas you can find and get the deity dialog and worship without ever uncovering the block.--[[User:Sxerks|Sxerks]] 18:14, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::Specifically, this seems to happen after you just went to another altar. In this example: http://it-is-law.com/dump/DD-AltarBug.png if I go to the bottom right altar, I can then click on and activate the top left altar without traveling there. This does not seem to be the case for shops. This is likely related to the other altar bug I posted above. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]
:::Awesome, more info helped us figure out what was up. Fixed. --Dislekcia

*Bug? - Sorry if this is not the right place to report but can't see a better one. Getting error message "Unexpected error occured when running the game" immediately on launch, when trying to play on Netbook. Suppose it might be something to do with supported resolution (on this netbook, resolution is 1024x600). Or something else perhaps? --[[User:Serioustiger|serioustiger]] 19:26, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:: It runs fine on my netbook that runs at the same resolution, so it shouldn't be that. --[[User:Charcoal|Charcoal]] 00:41, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

:: Getting the same error on a desktop system with Windows XP Pro SP3. Core2 Duo CPU, 2 GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 9800 GT running at 1280x1024, the game's folder is directly in the root of drive C: (C:\DeskDungeons_0051).
:::Hmmm. Could be some sort of GM bug, like not finding the right fallback version of DirectX or something. Unexpected errors usually happen in GM games when it tries to do something graphics card related and can't figure out how. Will probably turn on logging in the next version so that we can see what's up. --Dislekcia

*Bug - I was standing on the HALPME glyph and accidently pressed WEYTWAT (teleport glyph). I got teleported but HELPME stayed in the "on the ground" slot. So i, being cheater am i, just happily added to my slots. ;)
:: It does seem to at least delete the glyph from the original spot, though. Alas, I was hoping it might be cloning it... but it's not. [[User:Neongrey|Neongrey]] 02:05, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

*Bug - I've not been able to get the game to run at all on my Windows XP system. It gives the loading screen, tells me it's loading stuff for about ten seconds, and then the screen simply closes itself with no error messages at all. I'm running a standard XP system (32 bit mode) in 800x600 resolution. Suggestions? Anyone else have the same problem?
::Do you have DirectX installed? If so, which version? --Dislekcia

*Bug - if you reveal a boss monster by going onto an altar or shop, the altar/shop prompt will be visible for a split second before it's replaced by the boss monster prompt. It would be slightly cleaner to not show the altar/shop prompt at all. --[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 15:03, 5 June 2010 (UTC) 

*Bug - it is possible to 'phantom' attack an enemy, if you click an open tile, and before the move completely registers have your mouse over an enemy. It'll count as striking the enemy, and can even strike an enemy two or more tiles from where you actually clicked to! Very annoying to die to this. --[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 15:03, 5 June 2010 (UTC) 

*Bug - I encountered a divide by zero error when playing through the Library as a human warrior. I was following Taurog as a deity, and I think the specific cause of the problem was selecting the Mageshield (correct name?) boon which reduced my maximum mana by 2 when my maximum was already only 2 points. The following error message was listed in the log that appeared, 4 times.

ERROR in
action number 1
of Draw Event
for object ManaDisplay:
Error in code at line 28:
fraction = Hero.mana / Hero.max_mana;
at position 30: Division by 0.

--[[User:Xrobbedgex|Xrobbedgex]] 19:21, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

*Bug - The item "Stone heart" (2hp per level when destroying a wall) does not work for the Half Dragon knockback destroying a wall.--[[User:Sxerks|Sxerks]] 16:54, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

* 0.415 - Warlord gets WONAFYT, not CYDSTEPP

===Other Game Issues (Balance, Interface, etc.)===

*I've played the new version extensively. I've unlocked everything and I have to say it's considerably worse than the last version. This version is all about luck and that doesn't make it much fun. There are far too many games that are unwinnable, and I'm not talking about the start (although that's a huge problem also). Too many classes depend on the right deity appearing. On that subject way too many of the deities are gimmicky and useless 90% of the time. Earthmother (can't kill natural creatures, who cares she's rubbish anyway), Tiki (must kill in one shot), tarog and bindor (no magic), etc. They all have something. This would be fine, if there were viable options for classes. A wizard with tarog or bindor is screwed--this is just one example. Retiring ad nauseum isn't much fun. Shops are useless--it's always the same crap, the good stuff never comes up--and because of the above deity problems, this can make or break a run.
** I've got to concur with this assessment. Basically too many gods are useless, Dracul, Tiki etc. because they can't be used as part of a strategy, where you'll plan to get this glyph and do that and then boom you have some advantage, and the penalties they give are far greater than the benefits. I've successfully used the plantation boon at level 2, being sure not to lock myself in, but still not gotten enough of an advantage out of it to win the game. The new Pactmaker, on the other hand, is my bread and butter. [[User:Yidda|Yidda]] 18:55, 20 August 2010 (UTC) -yidda
** It used to be that I'd use Jehora or Taurog, Misteria, or Binlor etc. all the time. Now I only use the Pactmaker. -yidda [[User:Yidda|Yidda]] 18:55, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

These problems are magnified in the campaign. You put the classes in difficult maps, the first isn't too tough, but it still requires a good deity or lucky shop to get the health high enough to take a hit from the boss. It's the first one, not a big deal. But then you put the wizard in a terrible map. You almost require MA deity and the fireball glyph to stand a chance. This is frustrating, because you can play perfectly, and lose. This is terrible, terrible game design. Then, should the stars align, and you beat the dragon boss, you get yet another difficult dungeon where you need luck to get by. Three times lucky, with the wonky random rules you've got in place means that the game isn't rewarding at all. Why not let us pick the class and race like every other dungeon?

It just seems like you have all these great gameplay mechanics in place, but then because of your decisions on deity and shop rolls, you take them away from the player. Focus on rewarding player skill/strategy and less on lucky rolls and you'll have something here.

*About Health and Attack powerups (the kind scattered about the dungeon): Can we get some explanation on these things? After noticing that the attack power up does nothing for a level 1 character, I've been holding off on getting them. Likewise, the health power ups give more health at higher levels. What I want to know is, should I hold off on getting them or do they scale to level even after you've gotten them? --golden_cow2
::The attack power ups give you a 10% percentage bonus over your base damage per power up, so this extra damage will raise as your base damage does. So get them as soon as your strategy allows you. --Lanis
::Likewise the health bonus also scales with your level (1 MAX HP per level, the same as Dwarf glyph conversion). No need to hold off. --fall_ark
:::The Health Bonus should probably be shown when you hover over your health as it does for damage, then, to at least partially clear up the issue. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]

*I've found it really evil that the Escape key closes the entire game instantly. I've already lost at least 2 characters from tapping escape trying to cancel a spell :/ (I'm aware right click cancels, but habits from other games don't die so easily...) --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]
::Agreed. I lost 5 or so promising characters because of that. Changing the 'instant close' key to something like F12 and having the ESC key one ask if you want to exit would work better and without functionality loss. --Lanis
::Agreed again. I just started playing and hit escape thinking it would be used for options or something and poof. Ugh.
:More keyboard-friendly controls will certainly make the game better! e.g. Arrow keys for moving, 5/6 for potions, SPACE/ENTER/ESC for shop and altar conversations. So on. --fall_ark
:::Absolutely, I just listed the most pressing issue first =) Even if the mouse is still required in the end (though it probably doesn't need to be), numpad movement would be a definitely improvement. I'm thinking Y/N for shops and altars to make it clear what your selection is - though space could also default to a 'no' response. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]
::Wait. Instead of remapping the Escape key, just make it pop up a screen that asks if you really want to quit the game. Alternatively, make it so that holding down Escape for two seconds closes the whole application. --HydroKirby
::I also like a full keyboard control, azeqdwxc for moving, keybinded potions, yay and nay etc. The only point of using the mouse would be, in some cases, to prevent the discovering of some tiles, but if you really want to it's still possible to put something like selecting a tile with arrow keys and enter to go there. [[User:Rex4|Rex4]] 20:33, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

*The current gold system is essentially a pointless grinding mechanic - after each game, load up Goblin Wizard or whatever, go grab some quick cash, then start playing again. I don't currently have a great idea to replace it with, but the implementation as-is adds unfun grinding time without adding any actual thought or decision to the process. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]
::Removing the shared gold between runs and making gold coins give you more gold depending on your race/class/max gold should be enough. Basically, a gold-hunting race/class combo should allow you to be able to buy one or two good items more than other classes under the same circumstances. Now not only this removes the gold grinding, but it'll allow people to use goblins for serious ranked games, for example. --Lanis
::Concurred. I would suggest adding a "Minimum Gold" bonus (or simply replace the Max Gold bonus). There should still be a little room for gold hoarding for new players though, like Max Gold = Minimum Gold + 50 or something. --fall_ark

*The chances of getting a completely unwinnable game are too high. If it happens occasionally that's fine, but right now it's fairly common and at least some check to help avoid these situations would be desirable. Example games:
:http://it-is-law.com/dump/Unbeatable1.png
:http://it-is-law.com/dump/Unbeatable2.png
:http://it-is-law.com/dump/Unbeatable3.png
:My proposal: map out the monsters and runes in area that can be reached by a new character during level generation; mapping should 'go through' level 1 and 2 monsters but treat higher level monsters as walls, so to speak. There must be one of: a) Any of the Passwall, Teleport Monster, or Teleport Self glyphs are reachable; b) At least five level 1 monsters available to fight; c) At least two level 1 monsters and one level 2 monster; or d) The Summon Monster glyph is reachable and at least five total level 1 monsters are on the board (if this is guaranteed already, simply make it a straight glyph check as with [a].)
:The idea isn't to make it easier - just to remove impossible scenarios. You might still have to, say, use your starting health potion to take out a level 2 or whatever which is fine. This won't remove all unwinnable situations, but should remove a significant percentage of them without making anything easier the rest of the time. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]

*Worshiping Pactmaker as an unimproved Rogue results in instant death. Is this intended? --Azeltir
:Pactmaker takes 5 Base Damage and 5 Max Health so an unimproved Rogue will indeed die instantly due to Health drop to zero. Most characters "unimproved" would be screwed though, since your base damage is now likely zero. --fall_ark

*Nidhogg is supposed to be a dragon; the World Serpent is actually actually Jormungand. There's some Norse mythology for ya!

*I bought the rebirth-item (Restore health to full) on a level 9 Human Crusader while having death protection up, and got healed no health at all. Afterwards I attacked the boss and died where 300% of my attack damage would've been enough to kill it, but I did not get the last-blow Crusaders are supposed to. --Amadi

*Glyph balance {[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]}:
:*Teleport Monster is just worse than Remove Wall; it costs more mana and can potentially relocate the monster somewhere inconvenient, while Remove Wall also has other benefits (such as opening up more total blocks that can be explored). I'd keep Remove Wall's 8 mana cost, but reduce Teleport Monster to 5.
:*Teleport Self is also weak, and primarily only useful for getting outside of an early-game bubble of high-level monsters; I think it would still be weak at 4 mana, but certainly a little more useable.
:*Blood to Power is rather weak at high levels (right now it seems primarily useful for Level 1 Sorcerers); it's a little less clean, but perhaps making the cost 1.5hp per level rounded up would work? (2/3/5/6/8/9/11/12/14/15 instead of 2/4/6/8/10/12/14/16/18/20) I'm not entirely happy with that change and there might be a better option, but that's all that comes to mind for it immediately.
:*Poison is clearly to strong as it stands, but merely raising the mana cost is not enough to properly balance it; something more fundamental needs to be changed to fix Poison.
:*Petrify isn't especially useful right now either, as it doesn't help you get past any monsters and it gives you no XP for kills. This, of course, also ties in with the usefulness of the Earth Mother God (which currently is primarily good for giving a Transmuter lots of blocks to heal from). One option would be to simply make petrify kills give you half the level of the monster you killed; this would probably require an additional restriction such as being unable to petrify anything more than 1 level above you? There's surely some other options here too, but it does need something to make it more appealing. It might also still count as a kill for Mystera since you are essentially killing with Magic (would need to be tested in-game for balance).

*Monster balance {[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]} - monsters should be fairly close in average power level so that games aren't randomly especially easy or hard simply due to the monsters that randomly spawned; obviously this will still vary quite a bit depending on class, but currently there are some monsters that clearly stand out as strong or weak in general:
:*Animated Armor - Should these be almost strictly killable by Fireball only? The damage might be lowered a bit (160% -> 150%) to make it at least somewhat feasible (though still painful) to kill them in melee. On a related note, XP Gains should perhaps have a stepdown or raise up less rapidly based on level; it is a neat trick to go from level 1 to 6 in a single kill, but is also pretty overpowered. The first 2 steps (+2 and +6) are perfect and should remain as is. Past that, perhaps a flat +4 (or even +6) bonus per level difference to prevent it from getting so high so quickly? I'd like to see fireballing a high-level animated armor remain good, just not insanely good.
:*Gorgon, Goat, Bandit, Imp (to a lesser extent) - The reduced health is a huge deal for these monsters; I love seeing these guys around because it's often trivial to kill one of these monsters 1, 2, or even 3 levels above me. Gorgons sound threatening at first, but in practice they are pushovers for almost all classes and merely serve as a lucky XP bonus (*worth noting is that they can be bothersome to some of the currently strongest classes like Vampire, but still generally aren't too threatening). Bandits are in the same camp; they have nasty side effects, but it's usually easy to set up the kill right before leveling and snag some bonus XP in the process. Imps are more minor since they're only in the Library and Blinking can be an effective escape at times. I'm thinking:
::*Gorgon: damage 100%->115%; this means they do enough damage to level 4-6 players (considering some levels of health boosts) to reduce them below half HP, making their death gaze more threatening; this emphasizes their special ability while making them a bit less of a pushover. Possibly increase health 70%->75%, but this is probably unnecessary with the damage increase.
::*Bandit & Imp: I love seeing Bandits right now because they're almost guaranteed bonus XP. Part of the problem is that their negatives are so strong that you only want to fight them to level up on, and then their reduced stats make it easy to do just that. 80%->85% health seems like a good idea here, though I haven't done the math to see exactly what situations this would affect. Likewise with Imp, simply boosting the HP one notch seems like a good change but it'd need to be tested (or numbers run) to say for sure.
::*Goat: This poor guy is a strictly worse Golem! This is clearly subpar. Even against spellcasters they're quite easy, because they are essentially 100%/100% ability-less mobs in that case. I'd probably look at raising the attack at least 100%->110% (possibly as high as 120%), and raise their health from 75%->80% to make their magic resist matter a little more (could bump the resist from 25% to 30% instead, though this means level 1 spellcasters get an especially big hit from the resist which may be fine). Even with these changes they'd be worse than golems in most cases, but it'd at least be a step in the right direction; they could be buffed again later if deemed appropriate.
:*Goo Blob - The strongest enemy in the game. Even most spellcasters are using enough physical attacks that these guys are somewhat daunting; to a pure melee character, they're like a 100%/200% mob which is insanely strong. The current monster design treats magical resist and physical resist as pretty equal, but physical resist is much more powerful. The simple fix would be to reduce their HP, at least 100%->90%; another option would be to make them magic vulnerable, so magic does 25% more damage to them (either of these changes makes Fireball enough better on these guys that they are no longer so strong across the board). A 3rd option would be reducing the physical resist 50%->40%, though I haven't done any math to figure the ramifications of that. (Similar arguments apply to the Tower of Goo, of course, though I haven't had a chance to go into depth for the bosses yet.)
:*Vampire - The life steal is a weak effect, and after they do that they've got nothing special left and are mere 100%/100%s. I'd suggest either increasing attack slightly (from 100%->110% to 100%->120%) or increasing the amount of life steal a bit (40%->50%), or possibly both if they are still weak. Worth noting is that as long as these mobs only appear in the Crypt it is more acceptable for them to just be weaker, so like the Imp it's not as important to tweak Vampires as other monsters.
:*Zombie - Definitely on the strong side, though not as drastically as the Goo Blobs. I'd reduce their HP slightly, possibly only 150%->145% but probably 150%->140% (compare to Dragonspawn).
*TGG And The Crypt -- I'd suggest straight up making TGG altars not spawn in the crypt. Finding one early essentially gives you an auto-win for whatever class you're playing with; it's simply way too strong. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]

*What's the point of Dracul coming up for every class if only vampires can worship him? Seems like a waste of altar most of the times.
::Anyone can worship Dracul. Vampires can worship him without penalty. Try joining him when you're not level 1; you lose 10hp but then get the benefits from there on.

===Game Feedback===

* I like this game, but there are a few issues that hurt the game IMO.
::Why not let us pick our deity? For some classes in certain dungeons, a specific deity is almost required to beat it. It doesn't make for much fun when you are constantly retiring and restarting to get the deity you require. At least, show the locations of all deities. It's also frustrating that useless deities are so common (eg. Earth Mother, Dracul with any other class other than Vamp).
::Once you have all items, classes, races, etc, why are the most powerful items so rare? At that point the player is dedicated and just might want to have fun, but powerful items never come up, especially when you want a specific power item with a specific class. Regardless, even if the full game isn't unlocked the player has to work hard to get these items, let them have them. This is supposed to be fun, right?

*I like this game a lot :)

*This game is what I was looking for since years! In order to introduce roguelikes to my 6 years old son, I would be interested in translate it in french. You can e-mail me if it sounds interesting for you !

My today exploit : the Priest Massacre : I'm not quite sure that Benedict XVI will bless that ;) [[File:PriestMassacre.png|right|thumb|150px|Priest Massacre]] --[[User:Lepoulpe303|Lepoulpe303]] 15:08, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

*I found the Rogue class to be a bit underbalanced. Most bosses have an attack high enough to kill him in one hit, so, in order to kill them, I must spamm sidestep or fireball and that destroys the feeling of playing as a rogue. --[[User:NickDX|NickDX]] 20:07, 30 March 2010
::Actually, Rogue is one of the most powerful classes at present and is overpowered rather than underpowered - surpassed only by Vampire and possibly Monk (which people have also thought too weak for some reason). Try perhaps getting your HP high enough to survive one strike (e.g. Dwarf) or getting your attack high enough to slay the boss in a single stroke. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]

*Is it possible to actually beat the factory with the wizard class? Not using BURNDAYRAZ with Mystera... The meat man is mostly unkillable. A 50 damage wizard would have to hit him 20 times! And we have the golem boss too...
**It's easier than you think. Remember that you know where all the Glyphs are and can thus check what has spawned for you in any given game easily, so you can restart quickly if you don't get what you want. Even failing that, don't treat the Wizard as if magic is his only method of dealing damage. Wizard's melee damage is quite respectable after the 3 Attack Powerups, especially if you play a human. And if you find BURNDAYRAZ fast, then you're ready to use Animated Armors to level up very quickly. Don't use Mystera, in any case: having lots of mana only matters when you use a Mana Potion or gain a level; your regen per tile is unchanged, and losing out on your physical damage in a dungeon with the Iron Man is a very bad idea.--[[Special:Contributions/94.3.189.97|94.3.189.97]] 23:16, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
***I can't seem to find the condition in which you could win this challenge... Even as a human wizard, using halpme and iphalseek I could only kill Tony Stark, at the cost of all my mana AND health potions, leaving ALL the maze explored and the Meat Man still unscathed...
****At L7 (which is reachable from about 3-5 kills if you use Animated Armor carefully), you'll likely have around 40 Attack, 84 Health and 12-13 Mana. HALPMEH will heal 21 HP for 2 Mana at that point, whilst BURNDAYRAZ will deal 28 damage for 5 Mana. If you only use melee and healing, Iron Man will be dead after exploring about 30-40 tiles (which is about 8-10 squares of an unexplored corridor). You'd also need less tiles to do it at L8, but that would require a few more kills which you may or may not have access to. SMM is better left until you're L8 or 9, since you'll need something along the lines of 60 tiles to kill him. LEMMISI can be useful to get the necessary regen, and none of this is taking into account helpful items from shops (like Fine Sword or Tower Shield), use of Potions, or other Glyphs like BYSSEPS (very effective extra damage for minimal mana cost). In short, the strategy is simply to level up fast and start your run as early as possible, and knowing where the Glyphs are is very helpful in pulling that off. --[[Special:Contributions/94.3.189.97|94.3.189.97]] 04:10, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
*****So it's actually easy... ...if you have Halmpmeh, burnandrayz, lemmisi and 3 high leveled animated armors sitting right next to you. That's does not sound like a specific situation at all...
******Again, knowing where the Glyphs are allows you to check them quickly. And HALPMEH and LEMMISI are merely helpful, not *required*. BURNDAYRAZ is guaranteed to be somewhere on the map, and finding high levelled Animated Armors isn't difficult. The only real gamebreaker of a glyph to be looking for is APHEELSIK, and that appears in at almost half the games you play by the time the Factory is unlocked. The point isn't that *every* Factory run is going to be easy for the Wizard -- it's that it's easy for the Wizard to search for favourable conditions.
******Just to prove my point, I started another Factory game with a Human Wizard. I succeeded on that same game. I had a bit of luck in that BURNDAYRAZ spawned near me, as did a L8 Animated Armor. I did not find APHEELSIK during this game, but I did get HALPMEH. The only things I bought from the shops were a Spoon and Fine Sword, and I found an altar to Jehora after a bit of exploration as well. I also found LEMMISI, but I completed the game without using it. I ended up killing SMM at L7 and Iron Man at L8. I finished off both bosses whilst only exploring just over 75% of the map, never using LEMMISI, and never drinking a Health or Mana Potion. Sure, I got a relatively advantageous start, but I didn't get APHEELSIK (which meant SMM was a battle of attrition). Jehora helped, of course, but it was merely one of many things I could've found to lead me to success, especially given what I ended up *not* having to use. So yeah, you don't need a perfect game to beat the Factory with the Wizard.
*******I also just beat factory with Gnome Wizard. No APHEELSIK, but HALPMEH + BYSSEPS went the distance on both bosses after using Pactmaker + L8 Animated armor as my first kill. I was swinging for 72 a pop, and finished with 52 hp, 14 MP, a mana pot, and a Zombie Dog still active on me.[[Special:Contributions/78.101.75.189|78.101.75.189]]
*Also, Vampire is absurdly overpowered. You don't even need luck, I just had a game where I had to waste all my health potions at level 1, but after I got the fireball, 100 health points converted to 28 damage each fireball could destroy both bosses in the library without the need for any item, god or skill.

*I don't get "The Pactmaker", it takes 5 max HP and DMG, but only grants +1 max HP and DMG per level, this way, if you get it on lvl 2 (worshiping the pactmaker at level 1 is mostly impractical), you'll only have the real benefits at level 8.
Since most boss fights are at level 7-8, you'll get only +1 damage and +1 max hp. Sure, the exp boost is nice, but even if the exp boost were absurdly high, and you could get to level 10, you would only get +3 damage and +3 max hp.
Compare it with taurog, in which killing half of the 39 monster on the map, would grant you +60% atk, or even +90% if you found all the glyphs. Heck, even Binlor Ironshield at level 2 would grant you +6 damage at level 8, and you don't lose any HP.
The increase in experience gain is overrated. The pactmaker must be booster, a suggestion would be having the character gain +2 max hp and damage per level and +2 experience per monster. That would prove a very strong god.
**The pactmaker is actually quite powerful in the right situations. You're overlooking that he also boosts max mana too. In addition, if you get enough health buffs or are using the right class, you can pretty much ignore Pactmaker's drawback at level 1 and pick it up then. This gives (at level 10, which pactmaker can actually make doable) a total gain of 4 max hp, 4 max damage and 9 max mana. The latter is what can make him very nice. I used pactmaker to finish two different dungeons. Unlike Taurog or Mystra which give bigger versions of their individual buffs, you can use both your magic and melee skills together. With the right class/race combo, this can be a very nasty god. [[Special:Contributions/78.101.75.189|78.101.75.189]]
***Update: Just used pactmaker to finish Factory with Gnome Wizard. Finished with 50 health, 14 mana, and a mana pot, plus a death protection effect. I was using BYSSEPS to swing for 72 a pop, healing with HALPME or potions, rinse repeat. I was level 10 thanks to grabbing Pactmaker before killng a single mob and using the Nuke & Explore trick on a level 8 Animated armor as my first kill, giving me a massive starting bonus. I still had about 1/5 of the dungeon unexplored as a backup reserve.[[Special:Contributions/78.101.75.189|78.101.75.189]]

*I don't trust the tiki took too. I just played a rogue in the cript, and killed 35 out of 39 monsters without beeing hit, having a 55% dodge chance to face the bosses and some level 9 monsters. Having milked the most out of the god, it actually didn't help me very much. I know he doesn't have any restrictions and gives you a free health potion, but I got the feeling that he's a weak god.
Maybe increasing the dodge gain to 1.5% or even 2%, or maybe you could get free health potions for each 5 kills without taking damage.
**I agree here. I haven't gotten Tiki to contribute to a boss kill, because you wind up having to rely on luck for the final boss kill and it usually doesn't work, since you often need it or 3 times in a row, whereas with a 50+ mana pool from the arcane god you can just spam fireball, even on magic resistant monsters.
**I disagree entirely. I think Tiki is one of the best gods: unlike almost every other god, theres no downside to worshipping him. Free health pot = awesome bonus. In one Library run, I started off with a Rogue, and by the end of the game my dodge rate was nearly 60%. Taking out the bosses was a cinch (although I did use cydstepp to help with the Wizard boss, admittedly).
***It IS completely based by luck, I had the same run as you, with a Rogue at the Crypt with 60% dodge and, even with cydsteep I could dodge the Wraith only once in five hits...

Brainstorming

2010-08-20T18:46:40Z

Yidda:

== Suggestions about this wiki ==

dislekcia: Can we put in a picture of the game and a link to the latest version in the "Welcome" area? I can't see how to edit that...
:Well, I've added the front-page link, but you're going to have to either upload the image or enable external image linking ($wgAllowExternalImages) for me to do the screenshot. - [[User:Chippit|Chippit]] 09:46, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

salejemaster: I'm not sure how to do this but we should somehow change the screenshots that are posted here in the tigdb http://db.tigsource.com/games/desktop-dungeon to screenshots from .5 because the new tile set is much better then the old one, and you know how graphics matter to people, if anyone has any info on how to do this please post :)

DGM: For the wiki itself, a section for the spells should be added. Also, Glitterfingers is missing from the gods section. For the game, here are some ideas for the deity system:

yidda: we should maintain distinct version information on the same page, like the Dwarf Fortress Wiki does:
http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Stockpile
So if you go to the Gods page, you can click on the older DD versions to see what they used to do. this would also work for pages like this one, so that we don't have suggestions for the old God system next to the new ones.

== Suggestions for the game interface ==

'''Avoid math computations -'''
Would it be possible to include a number amount for the damage increase in the tooltip of Bysepps (and in other similar situations)?

Almost: Some indication or acknowledgement of the thief's first attack bonus or the berserker's bonus damage when attacking higher level monsters when hovering the mouse over them would be nice.

:Account for damage reduction when showing how much damage enemies do.

:Resistances are a pain to the mental math, how about displaying the actual numbers, for example, if I'm a monk, a monster's rollover would say "Attack:41 (20)" Admittedly it's easy for monks, but when dealing with 30% resistances, that is harder.
:Agree. This applies to both the damage the monsters will deal to you after Monk bonus, Tower Shields, etc. and the damage you'll deal to them after their resistances, your Berserker bonus, etc. This can either shown in the monsters Health Line or next to your attack value. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]

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'''Show which classes finished a dungeon -'''
Stormy: What about highlighting the classes who beat a particular dungeon. Just like it's currently done with the standard dungeon, but extended to the others, when the cursor hovers over the buttons.

:On the main menu, rather than having to look at the rollover text to see if you've beaten a challenge with a class, instead give the dungeon selection buttons boarders like the class selection buttons get after beating the normal dungeon. Also, give the transmuter et al. classes boarders after beating the normal dungeon, don't leave them out.

Can I suggest a menu redesign with a 'Go!' button, as opposed to simply clicking on the dungeon you want? That way, you can select each dungeon by clicking on it and the borders will show up around all the classes you've beaten it with for the dungeon you currently have selected. It'd streamline that aspect a bit.

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'''Rand-seed -''' Almost: If it's possible, generate dungeons from a seed number, and allow the player to replay maps by giving it the seed again or challenge a friend to do better than they did on that map. Maps from any mode could be replayed in such a manner, but completion of these maps would not count for unlocking stuff or highscores. This would also allow players to retry a map that they think they could've done better on and attempt more ideal solutions while learning how to play.

:Seconding this, and display the seed number during the game. That way we can always recreate the game when someone posts a screenshot and asks questions about it.

:: Seconded, but don't count a seeded game as a normal game, since a player could cheat by doing the same dungeon several times.

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'''Picking up blood not compulsory''' Perhaps the Bloodmage and Vampire should have the ''option'' to pick up blood patches, or not.
Perhaps it could be done via the glyph interface.
Of course, if a summoned monster dies on a glyph, then I suppose that could lead to trouble.
: I'm not sure, I think it's an important bit of strategy, that you have to plan out where you stand. [[User:Neongrey|Neongrey]] 14:21, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

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'''Victory -''' When I killed my first boss, I wasn't sure what to do next and spend several minutes clicking around before realising I should 'retire'. It would have been nice if the retire button was replaced with 'victory!' in those circumstances.

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'''Arrow keys -''' I'd love to be able to use the arrow keys to navigate! -- [[Special:Contributions/99.238.53.245|99.238.53.245]] 16:58, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
: yes. Please.
:: Numeric keypad!

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'''Class description -'''
mtarini: I think it is a pity that the one-line descriptions of the classes are only visible once, when you unlock them (the ones like "rogue: a class that specializes at avoiding taking damage").
Can we see them, maybe in smaller font and italics, when we roll over? BTW it the "three traits" system with traits name is very sweet.
[[User:Mtarini|Mtarini]] 19:30, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

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'''Fresh game start -''' Currently, when the game just first start, you have two dungeons: "normal" and "snake pit". I would leave only "normal" for the first runs, until you win that one once. It just looks nicer... more "fresh and immediate" for newbie players. --[[User:Mtarini|Mtarini]] 23:21, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

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'''Tooltip -''' Position: I frequently hover over my character to remember the information the tooltip shows. However this tend to cover other interesting stuff, like adjacent monsters, which is mildly annoying. A possible solution could be to (a) move the tooltip when it's closer than 2-3 squares from the character; (b) include that information (current effects, traits) in the area below the runes.

Information: instant death protection is not taken into account on a monster's tooltip. --[[User:Lejonmanen|Lejonmanen]] 09:25, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

== Suggestions for the Gods system ==

1) Dracul rejects Priests. Should the Glowing Guardian accept Assassin followers? It seems out of character, and it's a cheap way to steamroll the Assassin/Crypt challenge.
:Seems TGG is pretty forgiving to me (more generous than the god they're copied from anyway!) - if you are an Assassin that isn't using poison, they're fine with it I think. On the same topic, though, I think TGG altars shouldn't even spawn in the Crypt, because it basically makes it an auto-win for any class. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]
:: Agreed. By the same token, altars to Dracul shouldn't spawn in the crypt (unless it were to be included as a fourth "atmosphere" altar) due to his literally total uselessness there. --[[User:MrGuy|MrGuy]] 15:49, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

2) Binlor Ironshield gives the wall-buster spell when you convert to him. This should be used for other gods: Mystera Annur should give Fireball since her worshipers are helpless without it, and the Earthmother should give the stoning spell.

:Earthmother *does* give IMAWAL... providing it doesn't already exist. Binlor is the same way with the ENDISWAL Glyph: if it already exists, he won't create it. And that leads nicely to Mystera: BURNDAYRAZ is guaranteed to appear on every map anyways. All this said, it wouldn't be a bad idea to move the Glyphs to the player's feet when they convert to these gods --[[Special:Contributions/94.7.130.253|94.7.130.253]] 15:14, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

3) Speaking of the Earthmother and the stoning spell, she's lame mostly because the spell is lame. It denies you experience and doesn't clear obstacles out of the way; it has no use except to make her happy and her reward isn't good enough. I suggest having the spell only work on monsters below your level, but count as a regular kill (giving experience, triggering rewards/punishments from the gods, etc.). This would make it useful in its own right and make the Earthmother less painful to follow.

:Rather than change the mechanic of the god and render the special Gorgon class somewhat irrelevant, why not just change the reward? +1HP per level per enemy petrified, perhaps. Or +1HP per monster level. -ChaoSpectre

::The Earthmother giving regular XP for stone kills seems quite fair, as it balances with you not being able to take those stones out of the way.

:::Some wild ideas --[[User:Lejonmanen|Lejonmanen]] 09:41, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
:::a) EM doubles MP recovery when exploring
:::b) Petrifying a monster regenerates MP equal to monster level
:::c) Each time a monster would petrify you, EM kills the monster and gives you +10% physical damage resistance (stone skin)
:::d) EM gives another rune (LEMMETRU) that creates a "tunnel", preserving the rock but enabling the hero to go through, for a cost of 1 permanent HP per level
:::e) Petrifying monsters creates a "tunnel" instead of a solid wall
:::f) "Knowledge of earth" - can see walls 3 tiles away without revealing. Like the eye of scouting, but only for walls
:::g) Destroying ENDISWAL glyph should please her.

4) Glitterfingers just helps you get money, right? You can stockpile money easily enough anyway. How about having him spawn some potion shops to spend it on?
:How about if Glitterfingers removed the cap on gold for that run only? If you had more than the max at the end of your run, then it would be reduced to the max. [[Special:Contributions/68.159.130.228|68.159.130.228]] 16:21, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
:He could certainly use something - right now he's vaguely useful to grind up some gold slightly faster between real games, and even then mostly only if you don't have Goblin unlocked. Giving 2 gold per kill instead of 1 - and maybe also removing the cap as mentioned above - probably still doesn't actually make him useful, but would be a start I guess. Glittergfingers should probably be revamped completely, but that can wait until the whole gold system is revamped.

5) Right now there's not much reason to renounce a god except to see what happens. I'd like the option pick a god from the start (like race and class) instead of spawning random alters, so why not use the god's curses as part of another unlock system? If you level up at least, say, 5 times AFTER earning a god's disfavor and still win the game, you get the option to start with him as your deity. As an adjunct to this, let the player brick an alter with the stone spell or shatter it with the wall-buster spell as a way of angering the deity.
:renouncing a God serves the purpose of being able to worship another one --[[User:Mtarini|Mtarini]] 17:04, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
::I was also able to renounce just to convert a glyph into a potion so that I had enough life to kill a boss.--[[User:Sxerks|Sxerks]] 02:22, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

6) Fizanko: to make every gods more usefull and varied, maybe having them spawning a glyph or a new trait for the player, unique to them after the player successfully attacked and destroyed the other deities altars, giving alternatively an incentive for the player to explore the whole dungeon to find every altars.
Could then be used to balance the less interesting gods by having them spawning a more interesting glyph/trait.

7) Mystera Annur is absolutely terrible. The mana bonus can be useful, sure, but reducing your attack power to one is absolutely crippling, especially given that BURNDAYRAZ is much weaker than the standard melee attack even for your average wizard. Either lower the damage penalty, or have Annur increase the power/decrease the cost of BURNDAYRAZ. --[[User:MrGuy|MrGuy]] 15:46, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

== Suggestions for the Scoring system ==

rickgriffin: Thoughts about the high score board:

1) Include which boss was defeated on the run.
: Agreed. Also what god they were worshiping, if any. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]

2) Besides the top score board, also have separate boards for each class, so people have a reason to have high score runs without just selecting the 'best' class/race.
:Ideally there wouldn't be any clear best combos, and I think that is the goal down the road; there may be some combos that suck, but there shouldn't be any that dominate ranked games (I'm looking at you, Vampire & Human Rouge/Monk!) Not that having separate charts for each class would be a bad thing, I'm just saying the bigger issue is one of overall balance =) --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]

* What about also having top score boards for each of the challenge dungeons, as well? [[User:Neongrey|Neongrey]] 21:04, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

* Now that I think about it, having a score breakdown would be a neat thing too, so you could see what all contributed to a high score. [[Special:Contributions/68.159.130.228|68.159.130.228]] 13:28, 21 March 2010 (UTC) (rickgriffin)

3) Berserkers wish to die in battle. When playing as a berserker, get a bonus for dying and a sizable penalty for retiring. --[[User:Egasimus|Egasimus]] 20:32, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

4) Have an off-line high-score table.--[[User:Egasimus|Egasimus]] 20:32, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

5) Damage dealt being a part of the scoring system should probably be capped, or removed entirely. As it stands, the maximum bonus for speed (an instant win) would be 60 * 3 * 15 = 27,000. The difference between a one minute win (impressively quick) and a two minute win (not bad) is only 1800 points. On the other hand, the max bonus earned by maximizing damage dealt (bringing all monsters to low hp, exploring to heal them, etc.) is literally over a hundred thousand, and easily achievable with a level 1 Human Sorcerer (infinite casts of 4 damage fireball, not "skill"). I feel like ending up with a mid-to-low tier high score somewhat detracts from the impressiveness of doing the entire dungeon in under a minute. Some quick ideas at other way of calculating scores:
* Score could be based entirely off 'moves made' (the fewer tiles traveled / clicks before killing the boss, the better)
* Have "lightning short" times give exponentially more points (Maybe start with a x 9 modifier to the time score, and every 30 seconds it drops by x1)
* Classify scores by "games under 5 minutes", "games under 10 minutes", etc.
* Break ranked mode into multiple modes, where scoring is done differently in each (a "speed runs" dungeon, a "fewest moves" dungeon, a "maximum damage" dungeon where monsters don't heal, etc.)
* It seems odd that ranked dungeons are randomly generated at all. The dungeon arrangement has a huge influence on a player's max potential score. [[User:Varuka|Varuka]]

== Suggestions for the glyph system ==

1) Certain glyphs - mainly the three teleportation spells - are vastly inferior to most other glyphs. Rather than try to make all spells equally useful, though, I suggest dividing glyphs into two categories: Master glyphs and Apprentice glyphs. Master glyphs would work as glyphs do now. Apprentice glyphs would be weaker and/or more costly and would give no bonus on conversion, but each game some of them would spawn next to the player's starting position. This would balance the glyphs and help eliminate hopeless starts.
: I like that there are random difficult starts. Don't turn in into a chess solitaire. ----

2) To go with the above idea, here's a suggested new spell: DUNBEESHOKD (Lightning Bolt) - 4 Mana. Deals 2 damage per player level to a monster. This would be an apprentice version of Fireball, suitable for giving to the player from the start in case they want to go the pure magic route.

3) Suggestions for specific spells:

....BLUDTUPOWA needs work. How about letting it turn a health potion into a mana potion instead? That would make it more generally useful while keeping with the Blood Mage's health-for-power theme.

....WEYTWUT teleports you somewhere useless or dangerous too often. How about having it only take you to shops, glyphs and alters? Or at least making it send you somewhere you haven't already explored?

....I already discussed fixing IMAWAL when I talked about the Earthmother earlier, but I'll repeat it here for completeness: restrict it to enemies below the player's level, but let it count as a normal kill for reward/penalty purposes.

....make LEMMESEE work as an eye of scouting until the player attacks a monster. Or make it scout only nearby interesting stuff (monsters, shops, altars and runes) without displaying what they are (use a question mark icon) -Lejonmanen

Limiting WEYTWUT to unexplored area would be a definite plus.

'''Rename BURNDAYRAZ.''' I understand and like all other glyph names. BURNDAYRAZ, however, I didn't decode until I came to this wiki! To me, it looks like either "Burned a Raise" or "Burn Day Raze", neither of which makes sense. Alternative suggestions: BABIKIU, TOSTOR, OOELDUNN, FIYABUNN (the last has a nice Jamaican twang to it). --[[User:Rsl12|Rsl12]] 23:02, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

== General suggestions==
'''Difficulty''': After getting pretty good at the game with certain strategies, the fun becomes beating certain dungeons with certain classes. I thought it'd be cool if it'd be possible to add some ability to increase the difficulty independently of class/race/dungeon, by adding bonus settings to place more (or bigger) bosses, or options to remove shops, not heal when exploring, etc.

'''OpenSource?''' DGM: Nandrew, I assume you're reading this since I got the link for this wiki from you. Are you going to share the source, so we can play with ideas you reject? Failing that, would you use the discussion page and comment on which ideas being presented here that you're considering using? I've got more ideas for the glyph system I suggested, but there's no point in talking about it if it will never be implemented.

'''Randomness -''' Jabberwock: One suggestion for the dodge - as it seems it is one of very few random elements after the game starts (maybe beside the Imp teleports), it is a little bit out of place. What if the order of the enemy miss was predetermined instead of random? That is, one of the five enemy hits misses - I receive hit no.1, 2 etc., and the no. 5 always misses... Would certainly make it more strategic.

'''Minimum gold -''' fall_ark: This might sound a little cheap but... how about adding a "minimum gold" bonus? Or change the saved gold system as a whole. I mean, after unlocking the Goblin race it becomes super easy to gain 50~70 gold in a few minutes, and before that I used to choose rogue to do some rounds of hoarding...It just feels a bit tedious. Or I'm just lazy and spoiled...

: I would like that your max gold go to full inbetteen rounds, basicly I max my gold with the goblin/trasmutat and just hit "retire" , doing this meny times can max gold - but - shouldnt the game just do this automaticaly "max" my gold since i can do this trick anyway?

:: On the contrary - on retiring without beating the dungeon boss, you shouldn't be able to keep all your gold. Hoarding sessions seem a bit unfair to me.--[[User:Egasimus|Egasimus]] 19:53, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

: I totally agree! What a waste of time. If you do have to do this use Goblin Wizard...--[[User:Greatdiwei|Greatdiwei]] 07:09, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

'''ports -''' There really should be a iPhone/iTouch version of Desktop Dungeons. I think it would be awesome on the platform. Dont know how hard to port it is but you know, a suggestion:D
zreaperz-
:or even for Android. It is definitly the kind of time sink i'd love to have in my pocket
::It would definitely work well on a handheld.
::: What about an iPad? The iPad is desperately needing a good roguelike :) --[[User:Greatdiwei|Greatdiwei]] 07:09, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

:Any chance of a version for Mac OS X?

'''Other Dungeon Bosses''' Rather than just level 10 enemies, how about in some harder modes, the actual gods are in the dungeon to fight? or maybe there could be a mode for that. Simply because stumbling in on Taurog for example would be a totally kickass moment. --[[User:RocketShark|RocketShark]] 12:56, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

 
'''Monster Tiles''': Might I suggest arbitrarily grouping different types of monsters into a tileset and then assigning a set randomly to a spawned dungeon? eg group off a set of 5-10 enemies... lets say in this case Orcs, Goblins & Ogres. Instead of the dungeon being populated with every enemy in the game, which gets increasingly bizarre with the number of available foes; This adds a lot more cohesion with very little spent in gross resources. --[[User:TokinAtheist|TokinAtheist]] 2 August 2010

 [[File:Biased.jpg]]

'''Placement biased tile sets''': Also I think it would do wonders for the game visually if the tiles in the dungeon had a placement bias. This trick can be done with very few lines of code and streamlines the appearance of the dungeon. It requires more work on behalf of the tile set authors but also gives them a lot more flexibility and control over the finished product. --[[User:TokinAtheist|TokinAtheist]] 2 August 2010 

== Suggestions for Objects / Shops ==

'''"Dungeons and Dragons basic player manual"''' - after you buy this (expensive) object, you gain one extra EXP for each GOLD you collect! :-D --[[User:Mtarini|Mtarini]] 22:59, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

== Suggestions for the classes ==

'''Religion oriented class? -''' It seems to me that the three current special classes could appear as Tier 4 classes.
* the "Transmuter" belongs to "Wizards",
* the "Crusader" belongs to "Fighters",
* the "Tinker" belongs to "Thieves".

That leaves the "Priest" line open for a new character: GOOD! because it is about time to have a ''Religion'' oriented class. Maybe one that senses altars, starts with an extra altar, and can belong to two religions (or, maybe, can get away with changing religions at any time). --[[User:Mtarini|Mtarini]] 22:25, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

----

'''Tiers 5 classes?'''
* Thieves -> ''Ninjas'', specialized at stealth (see below)
* Fighters -> ''Man-at-arms'', specialized at armours (physical protection)?
* Priests -> ''Disbeliver'', specialized ''against'' religions? (someway)
* Wizards -> ''Alchimist'', specialized at potions?
: or maybe
* Wizards -> ''Archmages'': 2 MP regeneration, negative protections (take double phys damage), 0 start attack?

just brainstorming...--[[User:Mtarini|Mtarini]] 22:25, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

'''Special Class for defeating Lothlorien'''
All that hard work should be rewarded :) --[[User:Greatdiwei|Greatdiwei]] 07:11, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

----

'''Ninjas''' - "a stealth assassin that acts in shadows" ''[class porposal]''

They have a glyph that allows them to go ''stealth mode'': in that mode, they explore the dungeon NOT revealing anything, but leaving stuff in shadow instead (just as the half-dragon's extended view radius, but at radius 1 not 2). So they sense monsters and stuff at radius 1, but cannot see what it is. That should feel like they are acting in total shadow. The very square they are in, the one "at radius 0", is the only square being actually explored. Ninjas can attack a monster in shadow (not knowing what it actually is - risky!), gaining first strike, huge bonuses, and some 50% chance of monster being "dazed" and not fighting back for that round. The monster (if survives) is then revealed anyway. If the ninja would be killed in response, it gets out of stealth mode with 1 HP instead (and, if appropriate, poisoned, mana burned, or even turned into stone, etc). One can get out of stealth mode anytime by clicking on the glyph again (at no costs).

Completing with the ninja might unlock the stealth glyph for other classes as well, but only the ninja should get the extra bonuses. So ninja would have, as traits: (1) starts with that glyph, (2) bonuses when attacking an unrevealed monster, (3) survives if killed by that monster. For other characters, attacking in stealth mode would be very very riscky (well, it ''would'' prevent life stealth from vampires, if they are killed).

However stealth-mode is useful and powerful, for anyone, as it allows one to preview things but waste very little "explored space". This could be balanced by negating the MP regeneration and/or one point of HP regeneration for the only square that is actually fully revealed (the one where the player is). The cost of activating the glyph itself should be 0.

--[[User:Mtarini|Mtarini]] 22:25, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

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Going4Paladin: The monk needs a buff, his last 2 skills are lovely, but when he loses half attack, he has nothing to kill with.... maybe he needs a poison immunity???

:The monk really doesn't need a buff. His DIAMOND BODY skill already allows you to take half damage from the start, and you're doing half damage to the enemy, so fights tend to simply take twice as long. But HAND TO HAND just has your Damage Bonus start at -50%. Each Attack Powerup you find or Glyph you convert as a Human increases this by 10%. So after 5 Glyphs/Powerups, you're back to base damage, whilst your enemies are still doing half damage to you.

:The net result of these two abilities is that every boost to Damage Bonus has *double* the effect than for other characters, and that's one hell of a buff. The same applies to any extra Physical or Magical Resistance items you may eventually find in the shops: they provide twice as much help to the Monk because his resistance is already so high.

:So yes, while he can be a little difficult to work with at Level 1 due to damage being rounded down, he swiftly gets much stronger as you gain sources of Damage Bonus. And his enhanced Health Regen makes hit and run tactics much much easier. --[[Special:Contributions/94.7.130.253|94.7.130.253]] 05:48, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

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Fizanko : i agree with DGM up there, i believe IMAWALL is in a need of a rework in my opinion, as in its current status it brings no advantage in comparison to every other glyph that cost a base 5 mana or even less, as by using it not only you deny yourself the xp of a petrified monster (and in Desktop Dungeons you need every xp you can) but by mistake you can block you own way.

The only use is for The Earthmother deity, but still i don't see the +1 HP gain to balance the xp you will not get from the petrified monster and the blocked path it creates, or just converting it for a bonus.

I can see and understand that to be a difficult glyph to balance, but i think it should count for a kill (so delivering the xp) when used for monsters that are below your own level (so you can't use it on a boss to get an "easy win"), or making it only in a limited amount of use so you can't overuse it.

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To round out the tier 1 classes, how about showing the locations of the altars to the priest, and the stores to the thief?
:I can see the benefits/symmetry there, but I find thieves to be pretty awesome already, and I can see the effective playstyle of priests, so I dunno if this is really needed.

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Okay, maybe I'm just bad at using them, but bloodmages strike me as pretty terrible. I can see where the devs were going with it, but it starts with a glyph that can only be used effectively by one class (and not even well by the bloodmage!), an ability that the vampire already gets and can make way better use of, and a boost to mana potions that also carries a cost in health that negates the benefit from blood pools anyway. So I think we need to replace the tier 3 wizard class.

*The class should have a playstyle centered around a glyph of some sort, which is unlocked for other classes upon winning and should ideally be usable by anyone.
*The class should also have a playstyle that focuses on glyph usage, in keeping with wizards and sorcerers.
*I'll put down a few ideas that sound awesome in my head right now, feedback on any (or more suggestions) would be super appreciated:
**Enchanters, which start with the DINTURT glyph (-20% to enemy's next attack), use less mana to cast glyphs that give bonuses like GETINDARE, BYSSEPS, and such, and gets higher attack boosts per level at the cost of lower health boosts per level.
**Occultists, which start with the BIYAPAL glyph (cast on a monster to have it assist in your next attack if it can move next to a monster, expensive and only affects one monster at a time), can move through monsters, and has lower damage to start with.
**Wild mages, which start with the WUTZINDABOCKS glyph (low cost, random glyph effect), generate 1 more of either shops, potions, or glyphs, and have a slight chance to use up no mana in casting a spell.

== Still uncategorized ==

Some more Random idea:

Other Offensive spells (Difficult to implement, because the fireball is pretty well balanced at the moment)
Have 1 off glyphs that can be cast once, so a big Fireball explosion, maybe 12 damage per level for example?

Have an offensive spell that either ties in with Max Mana, or your attack Power...?

A spell like poison, maybe "STASIS" that binds the enemy and as you explore the dungeon it loses health. Although this would be like poison, maybe to balance it you lose health as well?

Attack Ideas:

Make a class like a thief or ranger, that does ranged damage. How i see this working would be 1 "free" attack before the monster retaliates and fights back. Conversely some monsters could have the "Cover or Awareness" ability that counters this.
: The problem with this is that it's essentially equivalent to attacking and having first strike on your last hit - either way it's a sequence of blows where you hit them one more time than they hit you. It's a different implementation of a mechanic already in game. --[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 15:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC) 

Class ideas:

There are classes that only use the health stat and not mana, how about the other way around? SO only mana? Maybe an Angel, or Elemental? Also for these classes have them do something usefull with the Mana or Health potions/Power ups..

Other random ideas:

Wildmage: When you use a mana potion you get a random effect.
-----------------
Quests and multiple ending solutions

I might be fun and had some tactical challenges to had some basic quest with different ways to kill it. For example for a zombie game I made to win you can either :
- Survive the zombies untill the morning (implies lots of barricading and fighting)
- Break the charm causing them to appear (implies to be lucky enough to find a specific object, travel a bit in a dangerous house and get exposed to danger for a while)
You could have here:
- Save the child haunted by a deamon. Either kill the deamon (easy and brutal), or find a way to cast exorcism (should require some object and be more subtle and tricky to apply. For example every new level you get he is surrounded by nasty creatures you have to fight)
- The war. there are 2 different armies on the field. Your target is to kill the boss who is the leader of one army. you can either kill him, or kill all is army, and the other, (if you killed none of them) would kill themselves the boss
...

If might be even better if the targets and different path are discovered in game, with a bit of randmoness.

-----------------
Achievements: This game needs something to keep us addicted after getting the last unlock. The high score list won't do it for all players, but an achievements list would. It also provides a handy point system for a 'trait' system.

Traits: Let players select benefits and penalties before each match. This can require 'points' (A certain number to start with, with more available as you complete achievements, or simply one point per dungeon beaten with each class) have an impact on the final score, or both. Example: Jerry selects four traits before his game. Heavy Handed, Explorer, Blackballed, and Veteran.
Heavy Handed prevents him from gaining any Dodge or First Strike abilities, but doubles damage dealt to creatures below level 5. (Score x 1)
Explorer adds 50% to health regeneration and +1 to mana regeneration from exploration. (Score x0.5)
Blackballed removes all shops from the map. (Score x1.25)
Veteran adds +1 xp per kill, as per the Fighter trait. (Score x0.8)
Jerry finishes the map with a score of 28000. After multipliers, he is awarded a final score of 14000 to submit to the leaderboards.
----
Brainstorming new glyphs:

* IPHEELWEEK (Weaken) - Lower monster's attack power by 10%.
* WARIZHEL (Mass Charm) - Every monster makes an attack on an adjacent monster. (High-level monsters act first, targeting the lowest-level monster they can reach.)
* HIVOLTIJ (Chain lightning) - Deals 3 damage per level and leaps to any adjacent monsters.
* IKANSI (Selective Amnesia) - Unexplore twelve random tiles. (12 == casting cost.)
: A wizard could cast this, explore the tiles (possibly with LEMMISI) and regen hp AND be one mana up. Also consider that there's an item that doubles your mana regen, and I don't think a glyph like this is workable. --[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 15:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC) 
* BEGON (Banish) - Instantly kill monster of lower level. Add their level to max health.
* CRAMBLEDEG (Warp world) - Scramble the dungeon. (Generate a new dungeon layout with the same number of monsters, shops, runes, etc. as the present.) Vanishes after one use.
: What about the state of visible/invisible tiles? Sounds like it would be either broken or...weird. --[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 15:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC) 
* TOKIWOTOMARE (Time Stop) - Your next attack is completely unopposed. (Special monster abilities such as blink and life steal also turn off for the duration.) The strain on your body permanently reduces your damage bonus by 10%.
: Again, very similar to first strike. --[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 15:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC) 
* NOTUITZME (Polymorph) - Transform monster into random monster of the same level.
* GLOINZADARK (Destruction) - Cause mass destruction centered on you. (Destroys all walls, shops, altars and floor objects within 3 tiles. Monsters 1 tile away take 6 * level damage, 2 tiles away take 4 * level damage, 3 tiles away take 2 * level damage. You go to 1 life.) Vanishes after one use.
: When would you use this? --[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 15:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC) 
* SLEPOVREZN (Monster Migration) - Create new monster of level 1 to 9 somewhere in dungeon.
: Desktop Dungeons is meant to be about scarcity - this gets you something useful for almost nothing. Even if it's not something you can beat now, it'll be something you can beat later. --[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 15:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC) 
* CUMONDEN (Enhance Monster) - Level up target monster.
* IZALWAZRITE (Summon Store) - Summon a phantasmal merchant. (One chance to purchase a random item.)
* BULKUP (Enhance Strength) - Increases base damage and max health by 1.
* INRI (Holy Symbol) - Drive monster back with 50% knockback damage, or 100% against undead.
* ZENERCARD (Clairvoyance) - Detect the location of any items and monsters within 3 tiles.
* NOUSIIT (Invisibility) - Gives 50% dodge chance for your next action.

---------
Achievements:
* GODLESS - Follow no deity.
* AGNOSTIC - Follow all three available gods in a single run.
* SKIMMER - Reveal less than 50% of the map.
* PACIFIST - Killed boss but more than half of total monsters alive.
* THRIFTY - Didn't visit store.
* SCROOGE - Exited dungeon with 30 or more gold then you entered with.

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Much like how vampires follow Dracul for free, Binlor should do something special for dwarves who follow him. [[User:Neongrey|Neongrey]] 03:11, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

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The dungeon specific monsters (naga, imp, vampire and armour) are pretty fun guys, and it would be nice to see them in the main dungeon. Perhaps as a reward for beating their dungeon with [x] classes.

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Petrification doesn't have any purpose but to please the Earthmother god. And the Earthmother doesn't have any purpose other than to make petrification useful. That's not good!

SIMPLE IDEA:
Make petrification work in same way as a gorgon's death gaze: it counts as a kill in every way, but only works on monsters of less than some % health. Now it's a very situational assassination skill -- super-good against some bosses (like Super Meat Man) and super-bad against others (like Gharbad.)

But this doesn't help that the gorgon class' innate petrification is either trivial (so long as they keep their ENDISWAL glyph) or game-wreckingly harmful (if they don't.) So:

MORE COMPLEX IDEA:
Stoned monsters become statues which the character can push around the dungeon sokoban style.

-----------

Love the game. Gushing aside, criticisms:

Classes:
The best classes seem to be "mix" classes: thief and priest, for example. Classes that rely primarly on melee or magic (fighter, wizard) seem to have their work seriously cut out for them.

Fighter is awful, and could use a buff. Perhaps "regenerate" his death save? (every 5 kills?)
Wizard is poor, even with the -1mp: largely because (imo) the only way to kill things with magic is fireball, and at high levels fireball does not scale well at all. Perhaps this more an issue with fireball, though.
Vampire is ungodly powerful, largely down to it having fireballs out the wazoo. Perhaps remove its ability to use magic? (and give it a buff somewhere else?)
Crusader seems weak to me... probably because momentum caps out. I have a hellish time defeating bosses with crusader, because after the first hit, damage drops significantly. Also, fireball causes momentum to reset - not sure if thats intended, but it renders fireball pretty much useless.

Glyphs:
PISOF and WEYTWUT are both pretty much useless (unless you get trapped, but even still, id rather have pretty much anything else).
IMAWAL as noted many times above, is awful. Other people have good suggestions.
LEMMISI, even with the trick, I feel is underpowered: largely because once you run out of spaces to explore, it becomes useless. Perhaps reduce the MP cost to 1? Incidentally, it also causes vampire life leech to trigger. Not sure if thats meant.
APHEELSIK makes or breaks games, for many classes. Taking down Super Meat Man (or many others) becomes trivial with poison: if you dont have it, it becomes incredibly difficult (in some cases impossible - try take down Super Meat Man with a wizard, for example). As a possible alternative to messing around with poison, nerfing Boss Regen rate may help "fix" several aspects of the game.
BLUDTOPOWA is awful at high level. ~16 health for 1 MP is a rip. Increasing the MP gain or reducing the health drained (perhaps by half) would make it less awful, and would buff magic users.
BURNDAYRAZ as mentioned above, doesnt scale well. Magic users generally feel gimped as a result.
BYSSEPS could probably do with a "fail" if already cast. Not really important.

Bosses:
Some bosses seem significantly easier than others. Part of the problem is what boss you get randomly assigned: perhaps thats just the nature of the game, but if i see a Tower of Goo as a melee class, I may as well just restart. Super meat man seems horrendously impossible without poison.
: it is not --[[User:Mtarini|Mtarini]] 19:41, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Other stuff:
As others have said, having to farm between games is sucky and encourages grinding. Remove the gold cap, start off every game with the bonus you would've got for clearing the crypt multiple times, and dont have gold transfer. Also, rather than having certain squares cause popups (such as altars or bosses), why not have the information appear at the side (and disappear if you move away)? It seems to break the game, and after the 300th boss conversation, I dont really care what they have to say. (Also, I had to fight a boss who was beside an altar, using poison. Every time I moved beside him, I got an altar popup. Bleh)

Anyway, as I said, love the game and hope it continues to improve. --[[Special:Contributions/82.35.212.80|82.35.212.80]] 19:22, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

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More people keeping an eye on spam and maybe only contributions for registered users. All this spam ;/

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Should gorgons really still turn things to stone when they kill them with the fireball? They die from damage, not from the death gaze. [[User:Neongrey|Neongrey]] 14:21, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

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Lots of assorted ideas: 
1. Slightly randomize the amount of goodies available in the dungeon. Perhaps one round there'd be one less gold pile and one more attack upgrade, or one less glyph and one more health potion, or an extra 5th level monster, or whatever. It makes it more interesting if two identical characters can reach the end game with different proportions. Naturally, there should be a wider variety of useful glyphs (I pretty much find myself using the fireball and poison above everything else) and gods (Enough gods are of dubious use to make it possible that I wouldn't want any of the gods) to supplement this. 
2. I thought of a way to make PISOF useful: 
2a. Have monsters guard the tiles around them, and if you try to pick up something off the floor next to them (or use an altar/shop next to them? (or attack an enemy next to them??)) they get an attack on you, either at full strength or at diminished strength and without their normal on-hit effects. That way you might want to teleport a monster away to get at its goodies scot free. Spend mana to save HP (or to not die) (or to not get poisoned). 
2b. Generate the level such that monsters explicitly block the paths to caches of stuff, or prevent you from picking up stuff near them outright. (Perhaps only on the orthagonals?) 
3. I thought of a way to make ENDISWAL...not useful, but preserve the feel of it: 
Right now, it feels like it's an item that would have limited tactical benefit (grabbing bits of explore from the edges of the map, going around a monster blocking your way, etc.) but otherwise doesn't fit in the game, so a god has also been shoehorned in, but he doesn't make it too appealing either, what with gold being a mostly metagame material AND there being another gold-based god.
Why not implement a system of doors, with keys lying around the map (or dangling off of enemy's belts in a tantalizing fashion), with various glyph/class/item assisted ways to pick, force or circumnavigate them? Then ENDISWAL would have a clear purpose (getting around doors), or it could be replaced with a specific make-the-door-go-away glyph. You'd need a smarter level generator to ensure that all levels would be reasonable even with doors, but I think a smarter level generator is a good goal to strive for anyway. You could even colour code keys, so that unnecessarily difficult monster is worth killing to get its goodie cache, or maybe the boss is hiding behind a door which its henchmen has the key to, or so on! Also, chests, mmm. Keys keys keys. 
(Also, renouncing the Earthmother shouldn't turn EVERYTHING into stone, just drop enough stone to hamper your life unless you have teleportation or wall removal.) 
4. I thought of a way to make WEYTWUT useful: 
Make it a controlled teleport. Click a spot on the map, and the game will put you on the nearest open tile. Now you can use it to your advantage in conjunction with any way to sense monsters/glyphs.
Might be interesting to consider other forms of detection to compliment this - perhaps a form of detection that reveals the 9 and 10 level monsters, or revealing all of X item, or all the altars... 
5. I thought of a way to make IMAWAL useful: 
Ditch the idea of it instakilling a monster. It's a nonsensical idea in a game where monsters only threaten you if you threaten them. Instead, it would be great if it did something to mitigate the amount of damage they could do to you - perhaps a -% damage increase that 'regenerated' either with every exchange of blows or with every tile explored. 
6. In general, it'd be neat to vary the monsters up a bit more - I didn't realize so many of the monsters had the same 100% for one or both of the stats! If too many things share the exact same numbers, you run into a kind of 'threshold' problem: if your stats aren't quite high enough to surpass X barrier, they aren't helping at all, but as soon as they are you can go to town. 
7. Glyph idea - X% physical or magical or both resist for your next hit only? Like a defensive BYSSEPS. 
8. Some way to burn gold for a raw effect? Not sure if it'd be class or glyph related, but it'd make for a cool theme. I'm kind of picturing it being dragged onto the glyph exchanger to burn it for a stat boost ala the racial effects. 
9. A race that can burn a glyph for a supercharged next hit - some combination of extra damage, resist and ignoring extra enemy effects. Picturing 'boss killer/level catapulter'. (Actually, talking about all this brings to mind the idea of having a 'damage potion' and a 'resistance potion' - or would that be two resistance potions? - to supplant the two current potions, but maybe that'd make things too homogeneous, so perhaps not. 
10. How about an enemy with an innate chance to evade? I picture a cloud of bats for some reason. Maybe because they're Goddamned Bats. 
11. The pathfinding should try and involve moving to hit a monster such that it reveals nearby tiles, because doing so is often unwanted behaviour. 
12. Thinking about keys et all earlier got me onto the idea of traps - but is that too much of a jerk move for the game? I guess it'd be a fundamental mechanic change, so maybe not worth talking about. 
--[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 14:23, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Brainstorming

2010-08-20T18:45:49Z

Yidda:

== Suggestions about this wiki ==

dislekcia: Can we put in a picture of the game and a link to the latest version in the "Welcome" area? I can't see how to edit that...
:Well, I've added the front-page link, but you're going to have to either upload the image or enable external image linking ($wgAllowExternalImages) for me to do the screenshot. - [[User:Chippit|Chippit]] 09:46, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

salejemaster: I'm not sure how to do this but we should somehow change the screenshots that are posted here in the tigdb http://db.tigsource.com/games/desktop-dungeon to screenshots from .5 because the new tile set is much better then the old one, and you know how graphics matter to people, if anyone has any info on how to do this please post :)

DGM: For the wiki itself, a section for the spells should be added. Also, Glitterfingers is missing from the gods section. For the game, here are some ideas for the deity system:

yidda: we should maintain distinct version information on the same page, like the Dwarf Fortress Wiki does:
http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Stockpile
So if you go to the Gods page, you can click on the older DD versions to see what they used to do.

== Suggestions for the game interface ==

'''Avoid math computations -'''
Would it be possible to include a number amount for the damage increase in the tooltip of Bysepps (and in other similar situations)?

Almost: Some indication or acknowledgement of the thief's first attack bonus or the berserker's bonus damage when attacking higher level monsters when hovering the mouse over them would be nice.

:Account for damage reduction when showing how much damage enemies do.

:Resistances are a pain to the mental math, how about displaying the actual numbers, for example, if I'm a monk, a monster's rollover would say "Attack:41 (20)" Admittedly it's easy for monks, but when dealing with 30% resistances, that is harder.
:Agree. This applies to both the damage the monsters will deal to you after Monk bonus, Tower Shields, etc. and the damage you'll deal to them after their resistances, your Berserker bonus, etc. This can either shown in the monsters Health Line or next to your attack value. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]

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'''Show which classes finished a dungeon -'''
Stormy: What about highlighting the classes who beat a particular dungeon. Just like it's currently done with the standard dungeon, but extended to the others, when the cursor hovers over the buttons.

:On the main menu, rather than having to look at the rollover text to see if you've beaten a challenge with a class, instead give the dungeon selection buttons boarders like the class selection buttons get after beating the normal dungeon. Also, give the transmuter et al. classes boarders after beating the normal dungeon, don't leave them out.

Can I suggest a menu redesign with a 'Go!' button, as opposed to simply clicking on the dungeon you want? That way, you can select each dungeon by clicking on it and the borders will show up around all the classes you've beaten it with for the dungeon you currently have selected. It'd streamline that aspect a bit.

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'''Rand-seed -''' Almost: If it's possible, generate dungeons from a seed number, and allow the player to replay maps by giving it the seed again or challenge a friend to do better than they did on that map. Maps from any mode could be replayed in such a manner, but completion of these maps would not count for unlocking stuff or highscores. This would also allow players to retry a map that they think they could've done better on and attempt more ideal solutions while learning how to play.

:Seconding this, and display the seed number during the game. That way we can always recreate the game when someone posts a screenshot and asks questions about it.

:: Seconded, but don't count a seeded game as a normal game, since a player could cheat by doing the same dungeon several times.

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'''Picking up blood not compulsory''' Perhaps the Bloodmage and Vampire should have the ''option'' to pick up blood patches, or not.
Perhaps it could be done via the glyph interface.
Of course, if a summoned monster dies on a glyph, then I suppose that could lead to trouble.
: I'm not sure, I think it's an important bit of strategy, that you have to plan out where you stand. [[User:Neongrey|Neongrey]] 14:21, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

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'''Victory -''' When I killed my first boss, I wasn't sure what to do next and spend several minutes clicking around before realising I should 'retire'. It would have been nice if the retire button was replaced with 'victory!' in those circumstances.

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'''Arrow keys -''' I'd love to be able to use the arrow keys to navigate! -- [[Special:Contributions/99.238.53.245|99.238.53.245]] 16:58, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
: yes. Please.
:: Numeric keypad!

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'''Class description -'''
mtarini: I think it is a pity that the one-line descriptions of the classes are only visible once, when you unlock them (the ones like "rogue: a class that specializes at avoiding taking damage").
Can we see them, maybe in smaller font and italics, when we roll over? BTW it the "three traits" system with traits name is very sweet.
[[User:Mtarini|Mtarini]] 19:30, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

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'''Fresh game start -''' Currently, when the game just first start, you have two dungeons: "normal" and "snake pit". I would leave only "normal" for the first runs, until you win that one once. It just looks nicer... more "fresh and immediate" for newbie players. --[[User:Mtarini|Mtarini]] 23:21, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

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'''Tooltip -''' Position: I frequently hover over my character to remember the information the tooltip shows. However this tend to cover other interesting stuff, like adjacent monsters, which is mildly annoying. A possible solution could be to (a) move the tooltip when it's closer than 2-3 squares from the character; (b) include that information (current effects, traits) in the area below the runes.

Information: instant death protection is not taken into account on a monster's tooltip. --[[User:Lejonmanen|Lejonmanen]] 09:25, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

== Suggestions for the Gods system ==

1) Dracul rejects Priests. Should the Glowing Guardian accept Assassin followers? It seems out of character, and it's a cheap way to steamroll the Assassin/Crypt challenge.
:Seems TGG is pretty forgiving to me (more generous than the god they're copied from anyway!) - if you are an Assassin that isn't using poison, they're fine with it I think. On the same topic, though, I think TGG altars shouldn't even spawn in the Crypt, because it basically makes it an auto-win for any class. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]
:: Agreed. By the same token, altars to Dracul shouldn't spawn in the crypt (unless it were to be included as a fourth "atmosphere" altar) due to his literally total uselessness there. --[[User:MrGuy|MrGuy]] 15:49, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

2) Binlor Ironshield gives the wall-buster spell when you convert to him. This should be used for other gods: Mystera Annur should give Fireball since her worshipers are helpless without it, and the Earthmother should give the stoning spell.

:Earthmother *does* give IMAWAL... providing it doesn't already exist. Binlor is the same way with the ENDISWAL Glyph: if it already exists, he won't create it. And that leads nicely to Mystera: BURNDAYRAZ is guaranteed to appear on every map anyways. All this said, it wouldn't be a bad idea to move the Glyphs to the player's feet when they convert to these gods --[[Special:Contributions/94.7.130.253|94.7.130.253]] 15:14, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

3) Speaking of the Earthmother and the stoning spell, she's lame mostly because the spell is lame. It denies you experience and doesn't clear obstacles out of the way; it has no use except to make her happy and her reward isn't good enough. I suggest having the spell only work on monsters below your level, but count as a regular kill (giving experience, triggering rewards/punishments from the gods, etc.). This would make it useful in its own right and make the Earthmother less painful to follow.

:Rather than change the mechanic of the god and render the special Gorgon class somewhat irrelevant, why not just change the reward? +1HP per level per enemy petrified, perhaps. Or +1HP per monster level. -ChaoSpectre

::The Earthmother giving regular XP for stone kills seems quite fair, as it balances with you not being able to take those stones out of the way.

:::Some wild ideas --[[User:Lejonmanen|Lejonmanen]] 09:41, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
:::a) EM doubles MP recovery when exploring
:::b) Petrifying a monster regenerates MP equal to monster level
:::c) Each time a monster would petrify you, EM kills the monster and gives you +10% physical damage resistance (stone skin)
:::d) EM gives another rune (LEMMETRU) that creates a "tunnel", preserving the rock but enabling the hero to go through, for a cost of 1 permanent HP per level
:::e) Petrifying monsters creates a "tunnel" instead of a solid wall
:::f) "Knowledge of earth" - can see walls 3 tiles away without revealing. Like the eye of scouting, but only for walls
:::g) Destroying ENDISWAL glyph should please her.

4) Glitterfingers just helps you get money, right? You can stockpile money easily enough anyway. How about having him spawn some potion shops to spend it on?
:How about if Glitterfingers removed the cap on gold for that run only? If you had more than the max at the end of your run, then it would be reduced to the max. [[Special:Contributions/68.159.130.228|68.159.130.228]] 16:21, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
:He could certainly use something - right now he's vaguely useful to grind up some gold slightly faster between real games, and even then mostly only if you don't have Goblin unlocked. Giving 2 gold per kill instead of 1 - and maybe also removing the cap as mentioned above - probably still doesn't actually make him useful, but would be a start I guess. Glittergfingers should probably be revamped completely, but that can wait until the whole gold system is revamped.

5) Right now there's not much reason to renounce a god except to see what happens. I'd like the option pick a god from the start (like race and class) instead of spawning random alters, so why not use the god's curses as part of another unlock system? If you level up at least, say, 5 times AFTER earning a god's disfavor and still win the game, you get the option to start with him as your deity. As an adjunct to this, let the player brick an alter with the stone spell or shatter it with the wall-buster spell as a way of angering the deity.
:renouncing a God serves the purpose of being able to worship another one --[[User:Mtarini|Mtarini]] 17:04, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
::I was also able to renounce just to convert a glyph into a potion so that I had enough life to kill a boss.--[[User:Sxerks|Sxerks]] 02:22, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

6) Fizanko: to make every gods more usefull and varied, maybe having them spawning a glyph or a new trait for the player, unique to them after the player successfully attacked and destroyed the other deities altars, giving alternatively an incentive for the player to explore the whole dungeon to find every altars.
Could then be used to balance the less interesting gods by having them spawning a more interesting glyph/trait.

7) Mystera Annur is absolutely terrible. The mana bonus can be useful, sure, but reducing your attack power to one is absolutely crippling, especially given that BURNDAYRAZ is much weaker than the standard melee attack even for your average wizard. Either lower the damage penalty, or have Annur increase the power/decrease the cost of BURNDAYRAZ. --[[User:MrGuy|MrGuy]] 15:46, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

== Suggestions for the Scoring system ==

rickgriffin: Thoughts about the high score board:

1) Include which boss was defeated on the run.
: Agreed. Also what god they were worshiping, if any. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]

2) Besides the top score board, also have separate boards for each class, so people have a reason to have high score runs without just selecting the 'best' class/race.
:Ideally there wouldn't be any clear best combos, and I think that is the goal down the road; there may be some combos that suck, but there shouldn't be any that dominate ranked games (I'm looking at you, Vampire & Human Rouge/Monk!) Not that having separate charts for each class would be a bad thing, I'm just saying the bigger issue is one of overall balance =) --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]

* What about also having top score boards for each of the challenge dungeons, as well? [[User:Neongrey|Neongrey]] 21:04, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

* Now that I think about it, having a score breakdown would be a neat thing too, so you could see what all contributed to a high score. [[Special:Contributions/68.159.130.228|68.159.130.228]] 13:28, 21 March 2010 (UTC) (rickgriffin)

3) Berserkers wish to die in battle. When playing as a berserker, get a bonus for dying and a sizable penalty for retiring. --[[User:Egasimus|Egasimus]] 20:32, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

4) Have an off-line high-score table.--[[User:Egasimus|Egasimus]] 20:32, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

5) Damage dealt being a part of the scoring system should probably be capped, or removed entirely. As it stands, the maximum bonus for speed (an instant win) would be 60 * 3 * 15 = 27,000. The difference between a one minute win (impressively quick) and a two minute win (not bad) is only 1800 points. On the other hand, the max bonus earned by maximizing damage dealt (bringing all monsters to low hp, exploring to heal them, etc.) is literally over a hundred thousand, and easily achievable with a level 1 Human Sorcerer (infinite casts of 4 damage fireball, not "skill"). I feel like ending up with a mid-to-low tier high score somewhat detracts from the impressiveness of doing the entire dungeon in under a minute. Some quick ideas at other way of calculating scores:
* Score could be based entirely off 'moves made' (the fewer tiles traveled / clicks before killing the boss, the better)
* Have "lightning short" times give exponentially more points (Maybe start with a x 9 modifier to the time score, and every 30 seconds it drops by x1)
* Classify scores by "games under 5 minutes", "games under 10 minutes", etc.
* Break ranked mode into multiple modes, where scoring is done differently in each (a "speed runs" dungeon, a "fewest moves" dungeon, a "maximum damage" dungeon where monsters don't heal, etc.)
* It seems odd that ranked dungeons are randomly generated at all. The dungeon arrangement has a huge influence on a player's max potential score. [[User:Varuka|Varuka]]

== Suggestions for the glyph system ==

1) Certain glyphs - mainly the three teleportation spells - are vastly inferior to most other glyphs. Rather than try to make all spells equally useful, though, I suggest dividing glyphs into two categories: Master glyphs and Apprentice glyphs. Master glyphs would work as glyphs do now. Apprentice glyphs would be weaker and/or more costly and would give no bonus on conversion, but each game some of them would spawn next to the player's starting position. This would balance the glyphs and help eliminate hopeless starts.
: I like that there are random difficult starts. Don't turn in into a chess solitaire. ----

2) To go with the above idea, here's a suggested new spell: DUNBEESHOKD (Lightning Bolt) - 4 Mana. Deals 2 damage per player level to a monster. This would be an apprentice version of Fireball, suitable for giving to the player from the start in case they want to go the pure magic route.

3) Suggestions for specific spells:

....BLUDTUPOWA needs work. How about letting it turn a health potion into a mana potion instead? That would make it more generally useful while keeping with the Blood Mage's health-for-power theme.

....WEYTWUT teleports you somewhere useless or dangerous too often. How about having it only take you to shops, glyphs and alters? Or at least making it send you somewhere you haven't already explored?

....I already discussed fixing IMAWAL when I talked about the Earthmother earlier, but I'll repeat it here for completeness: restrict it to enemies below the player's level, but let it count as a normal kill for reward/penalty purposes.

....make LEMMESEE work as an eye of scouting until the player attacks a monster. Or make it scout only nearby interesting stuff (monsters, shops, altars and runes) without displaying what they are (use a question mark icon) -Lejonmanen

Limiting WEYTWUT to unexplored area would be a definite plus.

'''Rename BURNDAYRAZ.''' I understand and like all other glyph names. BURNDAYRAZ, however, I didn't decode until I came to this wiki! To me, it looks like either "Burned a Raise" or "Burn Day Raze", neither of which makes sense. Alternative suggestions: BABIKIU, TOSTOR, OOELDUNN, FIYABUNN (the last has a nice Jamaican twang to it). --[[User:Rsl12|Rsl12]] 23:02, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

== General suggestions==
'''Difficulty''': After getting pretty good at the game with certain strategies, the fun becomes beating certain dungeons with certain classes. I thought it'd be cool if it'd be possible to add some ability to increase the difficulty independently of class/race/dungeon, by adding bonus settings to place more (or bigger) bosses, or options to remove shops, not heal when exploring, etc.

'''OpenSource?''' DGM: Nandrew, I assume you're reading this since I got the link for this wiki from you. Are you going to share the source, so we can play with ideas you reject? Failing that, would you use the discussion page and comment on which ideas being presented here that you're considering using? I've got more ideas for the glyph system I suggested, but there's no point in talking about it if it will never be implemented.

'''Randomness -''' Jabberwock: One suggestion for the dodge - as it seems it is one of very few random elements after the game starts (maybe beside the Imp teleports), it is a little bit out of place. What if the order of the enemy miss was predetermined instead of random? That is, one of the five enemy hits misses - I receive hit no.1, 2 etc., and the no. 5 always misses... Would certainly make it more strategic.

'''Minimum gold -''' fall_ark: This might sound a little cheap but... how about adding a "minimum gold" bonus? Or change the saved gold system as a whole. I mean, after unlocking the Goblin race it becomes super easy to gain 50~70 gold in a few minutes, and before that I used to choose rogue to do some rounds of hoarding...It just feels a bit tedious. Or I'm just lazy and spoiled...

: I would like that your max gold go to full inbetteen rounds, basicly I max my gold with the goblin/trasmutat and just hit "retire" , doing this meny times can max gold - but - shouldnt the game just do this automaticaly "max" my gold since i can do this trick anyway?

:: On the contrary - on retiring without beating the dungeon boss, you shouldn't be able to keep all your gold. Hoarding sessions seem a bit unfair to me.--[[User:Egasimus|Egasimus]] 19:53, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

: I totally agree! What a waste of time. If you do have to do this use Goblin Wizard...--[[User:Greatdiwei|Greatdiwei]] 07:09, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

'''ports -''' There really should be a iPhone/iTouch version of Desktop Dungeons. I think it would be awesome on the platform. Dont know how hard to port it is but you know, a suggestion:D
zreaperz-
:or even for Android. It is definitly the kind of time sink i'd love to have in my pocket
::It would definitely work well on a handheld.
::: What about an iPad? The iPad is desperately needing a good roguelike :) --[[User:Greatdiwei|Greatdiwei]] 07:09, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

:Any chance of a version for Mac OS X?

'''Other Dungeon Bosses''' Rather than just level 10 enemies, how about in some harder modes, the actual gods are in the dungeon to fight? or maybe there could be a mode for that. Simply because stumbling in on Taurog for example would be a totally kickass moment. --[[User:RocketShark|RocketShark]] 12:56, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

 
'''Monster Tiles''': Might I suggest arbitrarily grouping different types of monsters into a tileset and then assigning a set randomly to a spawned dungeon? eg group off a set of 5-10 enemies... lets say in this case Orcs, Goblins & Ogres. Instead of the dungeon being populated with every enemy in the game, which gets increasingly bizarre with the number of available foes; This adds a lot more cohesion with very little spent in gross resources. --[[User:TokinAtheist|TokinAtheist]] 2 August 2010

 [[File:Biased.jpg]]

'''Placement biased tile sets''': Also I think it would do wonders for the game visually if the tiles in the dungeon had a placement bias. This trick can be done with very few lines of code and streamlines the appearance of the dungeon. It requires more work on behalf of the tile set authors but also gives them a lot more flexibility and control over the finished product. --[[User:TokinAtheist|TokinAtheist]] 2 August 2010 

== Suggestions for Objects / Shops ==

'''"Dungeons and Dragons basic player manual"''' - after you buy this (expensive) object, you gain one extra EXP for each GOLD you collect! :-D --[[User:Mtarini|Mtarini]] 22:59, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

== Suggestions for the classes ==

'''Religion oriented class? -''' It seems to me that the three current special classes could appear as Tier 4 classes.
* the "Transmuter" belongs to "Wizards",
* the "Crusader" belongs to "Fighters",
* the "Tinker" belongs to "Thieves".

That leaves the "Priest" line open for a new character: GOOD! because it is about time to have a ''Religion'' oriented class. Maybe one that senses altars, starts with an extra altar, and can belong to two religions (or, maybe, can get away with changing religions at any time). --[[User:Mtarini|Mtarini]] 22:25, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

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'''Tiers 5 classes?'''
* Thieves -> ''Ninjas'', specialized at stealth (see below)
* Fighters -> ''Man-at-arms'', specialized at armours (physical protection)?
* Priests -> ''Disbeliver'', specialized ''against'' religions? (someway)
* Wizards -> ''Alchimist'', specialized at potions?
: or maybe
* Wizards -> ''Archmages'': 2 MP regeneration, negative protections (take double phys damage), 0 start attack?

just brainstorming...--[[User:Mtarini|Mtarini]] 22:25, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

'''Special Class for defeating Lothlorien'''
All that hard work should be rewarded :) --[[User:Greatdiwei|Greatdiwei]] 07:11, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

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'''Ninjas''' - "a stealth assassin that acts in shadows" ''[class porposal]''

They have a glyph that allows them to go ''stealth mode'': in that mode, they explore the dungeon NOT revealing anything, but leaving stuff in shadow instead (just as the half-dragon's extended view radius, but at radius 1 not 2). So they sense monsters and stuff at radius 1, but cannot see what it is. That should feel like they are acting in total shadow. The very square they are in, the one "at radius 0", is the only square being actually explored. Ninjas can attack a monster in shadow (not knowing what it actually is - risky!), gaining first strike, huge bonuses, and some 50% chance of monster being "dazed" and not fighting back for that round. The monster (if survives) is then revealed anyway. If the ninja would be killed in response, it gets out of stealth mode with 1 HP instead (and, if appropriate, poisoned, mana burned, or even turned into stone, etc). One can get out of stealth mode anytime by clicking on the glyph again (at no costs).

Completing with the ninja might unlock the stealth glyph for other classes as well, but only the ninja should get the extra bonuses. So ninja would have, as traits: (1) starts with that glyph, (2) bonuses when attacking an unrevealed monster, (3) survives if killed by that monster. For other characters, attacking in stealth mode would be very very riscky (well, it ''would'' prevent life stealth from vampires, if they are killed).

However stealth-mode is useful and powerful, for anyone, as it allows one to preview things but waste very little "explored space". This could be balanced by negating the MP regeneration and/or one point of HP regeneration for the only square that is actually fully revealed (the one where the player is). The cost of activating the glyph itself should be 0.

--[[User:Mtarini|Mtarini]] 22:25, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

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Going4Paladin: The monk needs a buff, his last 2 skills are lovely, but when he loses half attack, he has nothing to kill with.... maybe he needs a poison immunity???

:The monk really doesn't need a buff. His DIAMOND BODY skill already allows you to take half damage from the start, and you're doing half damage to the enemy, so fights tend to simply take twice as long. But HAND TO HAND just has your Damage Bonus start at -50%. Each Attack Powerup you find or Glyph you convert as a Human increases this by 10%. So after 5 Glyphs/Powerups, you're back to base damage, whilst your enemies are still doing half damage to you.

:The net result of these two abilities is that every boost to Damage Bonus has *double* the effect than for other characters, and that's one hell of a buff. The same applies to any extra Physical or Magical Resistance items you may eventually find in the shops: they provide twice as much help to the Monk because his resistance is already so high.

:So yes, while he can be a little difficult to work with at Level 1 due to damage being rounded down, he swiftly gets much stronger as you gain sources of Damage Bonus. And his enhanced Health Regen makes hit and run tactics much much easier. --[[Special:Contributions/94.7.130.253|94.7.130.253]] 05:48, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

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Fizanko : i agree with DGM up there, i believe IMAWALL is in a need of a rework in my opinion, as in its current status it brings no advantage in comparison to every other glyph that cost a base 5 mana or even less, as by using it not only you deny yourself the xp of a petrified monster (and in Desktop Dungeons you need every xp you can) but by mistake you can block you own way.

The only use is for The Earthmother deity, but still i don't see the +1 HP gain to balance the xp you will not get from the petrified monster and the blocked path it creates, or just converting it for a bonus.

I can see and understand that to be a difficult glyph to balance, but i think it should count for a kill (so delivering the xp) when used for monsters that are below your own level (so you can't use it on a boss to get an "easy win"), or making it only in a limited amount of use so you can't overuse it.

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To round out the tier 1 classes, how about showing the locations of the altars to the priest, and the stores to the thief?
:I can see the benefits/symmetry there, but I find thieves to be pretty awesome already, and I can see the effective playstyle of priests, so I dunno if this is really needed.

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Okay, maybe I'm just bad at using them, but bloodmages strike me as pretty terrible. I can see where the devs were going with it, but it starts with a glyph that can only be used effectively by one class (and not even well by the bloodmage!), an ability that the vampire already gets and can make way better use of, and a boost to mana potions that also carries a cost in health that negates the benefit from blood pools anyway. So I think we need to replace the tier 3 wizard class.

*The class should have a playstyle centered around a glyph of some sort, which is unlocked for other classes upon winning and should ideally be usable by anyone.
*The class should also have a playstyle that focuses on glyph usage, in keeping with wizards and sorcerers.
*I'll put down a few ideas that sound awesome in my head right now, feedback on any (or more suggestions) would be super appreciated:
**Enchanters, which start with the DINTURT glyph (-20% to enemy's next attack), use less mana to cast glyphs that give bonuses like GETINDARE, BYSSEPS, and such, and gets higher attack boosts per level at the cost of lower health boosts per level.
**Occultists, which start with the BIYAPAL glyph (cast on a monster to have it assist in your next attack if it can move next to a monster, expensive and only affects one monster at a time), can move through monsters, and has lower damage to start with.
**Wild mages, which start with the WUTZINDABOCKS glyph (low cost, random glyph effect), generate 1 more of either shops, potions, or glyphs, and have a slight chance to use up no mana in casting a spell.

== Still uncategorized ==

Some more Random idea:

Other Offensive spells (Difficult to implement, because the fireball is pretty well balanced at the moment)
Have 1 off glyphs that can be cast once, so a big Fireball explosion, maybe 12 damage per level for example?

Have an offensive spell that either ties in with Max Mana, or your attack Power...?

A spell like poison, maybe "STASIS" that binds the enemy and as you explore the dungeon it loses health. Although this would be like poison, maybe to balance it you lose health as well?

Attack Ideas:

Make a class like a thief or ranger, that does ranged damage. How i see this working would be 1 "free" attack before the monster retaliates and fights back. Conversely some monsters could have the "Cover or Awareness" ability that counters this.
: The problem with this is that it's essentially equivalent to attacking and having first strike on your last hit - either way it's a sequence of blows where you hit them one more time than they hit you. It's a different implementation of a mechanic already in game. --[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 15:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC) 

Class ideas:

There are classes that only use the health stat and not mana, how about the other way around? SO only mana? Maybe an Angel, or Elemental? Also for these classes have them do something usefull with the Mana or Health potions/Power ups..

Other random ideas:

Wildmage: When you use a mana potion you get a random effect.
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Quests and multiple ending solutions

I might be fun and had some tactical challenges to had some basic quest with different ways to kill it. For example for a zombie game I made to win you can either :
- Survive the zombies untill the morning (implies lots of barricading and fighting)
- Break the charm causing them to appear (implies to be lucky enough to find a specific object, travel a bit in a dangerous house and get exposed to danger for a while)
You could have here:
- Save the child haunted by a deamon. Either kill the deamon (easy and brutal), or find a way to cast exorcism (should require some object and be more subtle and tricky to apply. For example every new level you get he is surrounded by nasty creatures you have to fight)
- The war. there are 2 different armies on the field. Your target is to kill the boss who is the leader of one army. you can either kill him, or kill all is army, and the other, (if you killed none of them) would kill themselves the boss
...

If might be even better if the targets and different path are discovered in game, with a bit of randmoness.

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Achievements: This game needs something to keep us addicted after getting the last unlock. The high score list won't do it for all players, but an achievements list would. It also provides a handy point system for a 'trait' system.

Traits: Let players select benefits and penalties before each match. This can require 'points' (A certain number to start with, with more available as you complete achievements, or simply one point per dungeon beaten with each class) have an impact on the final score, or both. Example: Jerry selects four traits before his game. Heavy Handed, Explorer, Blackballed, and Veteran.
Heavy Handed prevents him from gaining any Dodge or First Strike abilities, but doubles damage dealt to creatures below level 5. (Score x 1)
Explorer adds 50% to health regeneration and +1 to mana regeneration from exploration. (Score x0.5)
Blackballed removes all shops from the map. (Score x1.25)
Veteran adds +1 xp per kill, as per the Fighter trait. (Score x0.8)
Jerry finishes the map with a score of 28000. After multipliers, he is awarded a final score of 14000 to submit to the leaderboards.
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Brainstorming new glyphs:

* IPHEELWEEK (Weaken) - Lower monster's attack power by 10%.
* WARIZHEL (Mass Charm) - Every monster makes an attack on an adjacent monster. (High-level monsters act first, targeting the lowest-level monster they can reach.)
* HIVOLTIJ (Chain lightning) - Deals 3 damage per level and leaps to any adjacent monsters.
* IKANSI (Selective Amnesia) - Unexplore twelve random tiles. (12 == casting cost.)
: A wizard could cast this, explore the tiles (possibly with LEMMISI) and regen hp AND be one mana up. Also consider that there's an item that doubles your mana regen, and I don't think a glyph like this is workable. --[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 15:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC) 
* BEGON (Banish) - Instantly kill monster of lower level. Add their level to max health.
* CRAMBLEDEG (Warp world) - Scramble the dungeon. (Generate a new dungeon layout with the same number of monsters, shops, runes, etc. as the present.) Vanishes after one use.
: What about the state of visible/invisible tiles? Sounds like it would be either broken or...weird. --[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 15:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC) 
* TOKIWOTOMARE (Time Stop) - Your next attack is completely unopposed. (Special monster abilities such as blink and life steal also turn off for the duration.) The strain on your body permanently reduces your damage bonus by 10%.
: Again, very similar to first strike. --[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 15:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC) 
* NOTUITZME (Polymorph) - Transform monster into random monster of the same level.
* GLOINZADARK (Destruction) - Cause mass destruction centered on you. (Destroys all walls, shops, altars and floor objects within 3 tiles. Monsters 1 tile away take 6 * level damage, 2 tiles away take 4 * level damage, 3 tiles away take 2 * level damage. You go to 1 life.) Vanishes after one use.
: When would you use this? --[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 15:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC) 
* SLEPOVREZN (Monster Migration) - Create new monster of level 1 to 9 somewhere in dungeon.
: Desktop Dungeons is meant to be about scarcity - this gets you something useful for almost nothing. Even if it's not something you can beat now, it'll be something you can beat later. --[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 15:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC) 
* CUMONDEN (Enhance Monster) - Level up target monster.
* IZALWAZRITE (Summon Store) - Summon a phantasmal merchant. (One chance to purchase a random item.)
* BULKUP (Enhance Strength) - Increases base damage and max health by 1.
* INRI (Holy Symbol) - Drive monster back with 50% knockback damage, or 100% against undead.
* ZENERCARD (Clairvoyance) - Detect the location of any items and monsters within 3 tiles.
* NOUSIIT (Invisibility) - Gives 50% dodge chance for your next action.

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Achievements:
* GODLESS - Follow no deity.
* AGNOSTIC - Follow all three available gods in a single run.
* SKIMMER - Reveal less than 50% of the map.
* PACIFIST - Killed boss but more than half of total monsters alive.
* THRIFTY - Didn't visit store.
* SCROOGE - Exited dungeon with 30 or more gold then you entered with.

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Much like how vampires follow Dracul for free, Binlor should do something special for dwarves who follow him. [[User:Neongrey|Neongrey]] 03:11, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

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The dungeon specific monsters (naga, imp, vampire and armour) are pretty fun guys, and it would be nice to see them in the main dungeon. Perhaps as a reward for beating their dungeon with [x] classes.

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Petrification doesn't have any purpose but to please the Earthmother god. And the Earthmother doesn't have any purpose other than to make petrification useful. That's not good!

SIMPLE IDEA:
Make petrification work in same way as a gorgon's death gaze: it counts as a kill in every way, but only works on monsters of less than some % health. Now it's a very situational assassination skill -- super-good against some bosses (like Super Meat Man) and super-bad against others (like Gharbad.)

But this doesn't help that the gorgon class' innate petrification is either trivial (so long as they keep their ENDISWAL glyph) or game-wreckingly harmful (if they don't.) So:

MORE COMPLEX IDEA:
Stoned monsters become statues which the character can push around the dungeon sokoban style.

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Love the game. Gushing aside, criticisms:

Classes:
The best classes seem to be "mix" classes: thief and priest, for example. Classes that rely primarly on melee or magic (fighter, wizard) seem to have their work seriously cut out for them.

Fighter is awful, and could use a buff. Perhaps "regenerate" his death save? (every 5 kills?)
Wizard is poor, even with the -1mp: largely because (imo) the only way to kill things with magic is fireball, and at high levels fireball does not scale well at all. Perhaps this more an issue with fireball, though.
Vampire is ungodly powerful, largely down to it having fireballs out the wazoo. Perhaps remove its ability to use magic? (and give it a buff somewhere else?)
Crusader seems weak to me... probably because momentum caps out. I have a hellish time defeating bosses with crusader, because after the first hit, damage drops significantly. Also, fireball causes momentum to reset - not sure if thats intended, but it renders fireball pretty much useless.

Glyphs:
PISOF and WEYTWUT are both pretty much useless (unless you get trapped, but even still, id rather have pretty much anything else).
IMAWAL as noted many times above, is awful. Other people have good suggestions.
LEMMISI, even with the trick, I feel is underpowered: largely because once you run out of spaces to explore, it becomes useless. Perhaps reduce the MP cost to 1? Incidentally, it also causes vampire life leech to trigger. Not sure if thats meant.
APHEELSIK makes or breaks games, for many classes. Taking down Super Meat Man (or many others) becomes trivial with poison: if you dont have it, it becomes incredibly difficult (in some cases impossible - try take down Super Meat Man with a wizard, for example). As a possible alternative to messing around with poison, nerfing Boss Regen rate may help "fix" several aspects of the game.
BLUDTOPOWA is awful at high level. ~16 health for 1 MP is a rip. Increasing the MP gain or reducing the health drained (perhaps by half) would make it less awful, and would buff magic users.
BURNDAYRAZ as mentioned above, doesnt scale well. Magic users generally feel gimped as a result.
BYSSEPS could probably do with a "fail" if already cast. Not really important.

Bosses:
Some bosses seem significantly easier than others. Part of the problem is what boss you get randomly assigned: perhaps thats just the nature of the game, but if i see a Tower of Goo as a melee class, I may as well just restart. Super meat man seems horrendously impossible without poison.
: it is not --[[User:Mtarini|Mtarini]] 19:41, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Other stuff:
As others have said, having to farm between games is sucky and encourages grinding. Remove the gold cap, start off every game with the bonus you would've got for clearing the crypt multiple times, and dont have gold transfer. Also, rather than having certain squares cause popups (such as altars or bosses), why not have the information appear at the side (and disappear if you move away)? It seems to break the game, and after the 300th boss conversation, I dont really care what they have to say. (Also, I had to fight a boss who was beside an altar, using poison. Every time I moved beside him, I got an altar popup. Bleh)

Anyway, as I said, love the game and hope it continues to improve. --[[Special:Contributions/82.35.212.80|82.35.212.80]] 19:22, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

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More people keeping an eye on spam and maybe only contributions for registered users. All this spam ;/

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Should gorgons really still turn things to stone when they kill them with the fireball? They die from damage, not from the death gaze. [[User:Neongrey|Neongrey]] 14:21, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

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Lots of assorted ideas: 
1. Slightly randomize the amount of goodies available in the dungeon. Perhaps one round there'd be one less gold pile and one more attack upgrade, or one less glyph and one more health potion, or an extra 5th level monster, or whatever. It makes it more interesting if two identical characters can reach the end game with different proportions. Naturally, there should be a wider variety of useful glyphs (I pretty much find myself using the fireball and poison above everything else) and gods (Enough gods are of dubious use to make it possible that I wouldn't want any of the gods) to supplement this. 
2. I thought of a way to make PISOF useful: 
2a. Have monsters guard the tiles around them, and if you try to pick up something off the floor next to them (or use an altar/shop next to them? (or attack an enemy next to them??)) they get an attack on you, either at full strength or at diminished strength and without their normal on-hit effects. That way you might want to teleport a monster away to get at its goodies scot free. Spend mana to save HP (or to not die) (or to not get poisoned). 
2b. Generate the level such that monsters explicitly block the paths to caches of stuff, or prevent you from picking up stuff near them outright. (Perhaps only on the orthagonals?) 
3. I thought of a way to make ENDISWAL...not useful, but preserve the feel of it: 
Right now, it feels like it's an item that would have limited tactical benefit (grabbing bits of explore from the edges of the map, going around a monster blocking your way, etc.) but otherwise doesn't fit in the game, so a god has also been shoehorned in, but he doesn't make it too appealing either, what with gold being a mostly metagame material AND there being another gold-based god.
Why not implement a system of doors, with keys lying around the map (or dangling off of enemy's belts in a tantalizing fashion), with various glyph/class/item assisted ways to pick, force or circumnavigate them? Then ENDISWAL would have a clear purpose (getting around doors), or it could be replaced with a specific make-the-door-go-away glyph. You'd need a smarter level generator to ensure that all levels would be reasonable even with doors, but I think a smarter level generator is a good goal to strive for anyway. You could even colour code keys, so that unnecessarily difficult monster is worth killing to get its goodie cache, or maybe the boss is hiding behind a door which its henchmen has the key to, or so on! Also, chests, mmm. Keys keys keys. 
(Also, renouncing the Earthmother shouldn't turn EVERYTHING into stone, just drop enough stone to hamper your life unless you have teleportation or wall removal.) 
4. I thought of a way to make WEYTWUT useful: 
Make it a controlled teleport. Click a spot on the map, and the game will put you on the nearest open tile. Now you can use it to your advantage in conjunction with any way to sense monsters/glyphs.
Might be interesting to consider other forms of detection to compliment this - perhaps a form of detection that reveals the 9 and 10 level monsters, or revealing all of X item, or all the altars... 
5. I thought of a way to make IMAWAL useful: 
Ditch the idea of it instakilling a monster. It's a nonsensical idea in a game where monsters only threaten you if you threaten them. Instead, it would be great if it did something to mitigate the amount of damage they could do to you - perhaps a -% damage increase that 'regenerated' either with every exchange of blows or with every tile explored. 
6. In general, it'd be neat to vary the monsters up a bit more - I didn't realize so many of the monsters had the same 100% for one or both of the stats! If too many things share the exact same numbers, you run into a kind of 'threshold' problem: if your stats aren't quite high enough to surpass X barrier, they aren't helping at all, but as soon as they are you can go to town. 
7. Glyph idea - X% physical or magical or both resist for your next hit only? Like a defensive BYSSEPS. 
8. Some way to burn gold for a raw effect? Not sure if it'd be class or glyph related, but it'd make for a cool theme. I'm kind of picturing it being dragged onto the glyph exchanger to burn it for a stat boost ala the racial effects. 
9. A race that can burn a glyph for a supercharged next hit - some combination of extra damage, resist and ignoring extra enemy effects. Picturing 'boss killer/level catapulter'. (Actually, talking about all this brings to mind the idea of having a 'damage potion' and a 'resistance potion' - or would that be two resistance potions? - to supplant the two current potions, but maybe that'd make things too homogeneous, so perhaps not. 
10. How about an enemy with an innate chance to evade? I picture a cloud of bats for some reason. Maybe because they're Goddamned Bats. 
11. The pathfinding should try and involve moving to hit a monster such that it reveals nearby tiles, because doing so is often unwanted behaviour. 
12. Thinking about keys et all earlier got me onto the idea of traps - but is that too much of a jerk move for the game? I guess it'd be a fundamental mechanic change, so maybe not worth talking about. 
--[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 14:23, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Brainstorming

2010-08-20T18:45:25Z

Yidda:

== Suggestions about this wiki ==

dislekcia: Can we put in a picture of the game and a link to the latest version in the "Welcome" area? I can't see how to edit that...
:Well, I've added the front-page link, but you're going to have to either upload the image or enable external image linking ($wgAllowExternalImages) for me to do the screenshot. - [[User:Chippit|Chippit]] 09:46, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

salejemaster: I'm not sure how to do this but we should somehow change the screenshots that are posted here in the tigdb http://db.tigsource.com/games/desktop-dungeon to screenshots from .5 because the new tile set is much better then the old one, and you know how graphics matter to people, if anyone has any info on how to do this please post :)

DGM: For the wiki itself, a section for the spells should be added. Also, Glitterfingers is missing from the gods section. For the game, here are some ideas for the deity system:

andy: we should maintain distinct version information on the same page, like the Dwarf Fortress Wiki does:
http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Stockpile
So if you go to the Gods page, you can click on the older DD versions to see what they used to do.

== Suggestions for the game interface ==

'''Avoid math computations -'''
Would it be possible to include a number amount for the damage increase in the tooltip of Bysepps (and in other similar situations)?

Almost: Some indication or acknowledgement of the thief's first attack bonus or the berserker's bonus damage when attacking higher level monsters when hovering the mouse over them would be nice.

:Account for damage reduction when showing how much damage enemies do.

:Resistances are a pain to the mental math, how about displaying the actual numbers, for example, if I'm a monk, a monster's rollover would say "Attack:41 (20)" Admittedly it's easy for monks, but when dealing with 30% resistances, that is harder.
:Agree. This applies to both the damage the monsters will deal to you after Monk bonus, Tower Shields, etc. and the damage you'll deal to them after their resistances, your Berserker bonus, etc. This can either shown in the monsters Health Line or next to your attack value. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]

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'''Show which classes finished a dungeon -'''
Stormy: What about highlighting the classes who beat a particular dungeon. Just like it's currently done with the standard dungeon, but extended to the others, when the cursor hovers over the buttons.

:On the main menu, rather than having to look at the rollover text to see if you've beaten a challenge with a class, instead give the dungeon selection buttons boarders like the class selection buttons get after beating the normal dungeon. Also, give the transmuter et al. classes boarders after beating the normal dungeon, don't leave them out.

Can I suggest a menu redesign with a 'Go!' button, as opposed to simply clicking on the dungeon you want? That way, you can select each dungeon by clicking on it and the borders will show up around all the classes you've beaten it with for the dungeon you currently have selected. It'd streamline that aspect a bit.

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'''Rand-seed -''' Almost: If it's possible, generate dungeons from a seed number, and allow the player to replay maps by giving it the seed again or challenge a friend to do better than they did on that map. Maps from any mode could be replayed in such a manner, but completion of these maps would not count for unlocking stuff or highscores. This would also allow players to retry a map that they think they could've done better on and attempt more ideal solutions while learning how to play.

:Seconding this, and display the seed number during the game. That way we can always recreate the game when someone posts a screenshot and asks questions about it.

:: Seconded, but don't count a seeded game as a normal game, since a player could cheat by doing the same dungeon several times.

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'''Picking up blood not compulsory''' Perhaps the Bloodmage and Vampire should have the ''option'' to pick up blood patches, or not.
Perhaps it could be done via the glyph interface.
Of course, if a summoned monster dies on a glyph, then I suppose that could lead to trouble.
: I'm not sure, I think it's an important bit of strategy, that you have to plan out where you stand. [[User:Neongrey|Neongrey]] 14:21, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

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'''Victory -''' When I killed my first boss, I wasn't sure what to do next and spend several minutes clicking around before realising I should 'retire'. It would have been nice if the retire button was replaced with 'victory!' in those circumstances.

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'''Arrow keys -''' I'd love to be able to use the arrow keys to navigate! -- [[Special:Contributions/99.238.53.245|99.238.53.245]] 16:58, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
: yes. Please.
:: Numeric keypad!

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'''Class description -'''
mtarini: I think it is a pity that the one-line descriptions of the classes are only visible once, when you unlock them (the ones like "rogue: a class that specializes at avoiding taking damage").
Can we see them, maybe in smaller font and italics, when we roll over? BTW it the "three traits" system with traits name is very sweet.
[[User:Mtarini|Mtarini]] 19:30, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

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'''Fresh game start -''' Currently, when the game just first start, you have two dungeons: "normal" and "snake pit". I would leave only "normal" for the first runs, until you win that one once. It just looks nicer... more "fresh and immediate" for newbie players. --[[User:Mtarini|Mtarini]] 23:21, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

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'''Tooltip -''' Position: I frequently hover over my character to remember the information the tooltip shows. However this tend to cover other interesting stuff, like adjacent monsters, which is mildly annoying. A possible solution could be to (a) move the tooltip when it's closer than 2-3 squares from the character; (b) include that information (current effects, traits) in the area below the runes.

Information: instant death protection is not taken into account on a monster's tooltip. --[[User:Lejonmanen|Lejonmanen]] 09:25, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

== Suggestions for the Gods system ==

1) Dracul rejects Priests. Should the Glowing Guardian accept Assassin followers? It seems out of character, and it's a cheap way to steamroll the Assassin/Crypt challenge.
:Seems TGG is pretty forgiving to me (more generous than the god they're copied from anyway!) - if you are an Assassin that isn't using poison, they're fine with it I think. On the same topic, though, I think TGG altars shouldn't even spawn in the Crypt, because it basically makes it an auto-win for any class. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]
:: Agreed. By the same token, altars to Dracul shouldn't spawn in the crypt (unless it were to be included as a fourth "atmosphere" altar) due to his literally total uselessness there. --[[User:MrGuy|MrGuy]] 15:49, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

2) Binlor Ironshield gives the wall-buster spell when you convert to him. This should be used for other gods: Mystera Annur should give Fireball since her worshipers are helpless without it, and the Earthmother should give the stoning spell.

:Earthmother *does* give IMAWAL... providing it doesn't already exist. Binlor is the same way with the ENDISWAL Glyph: if it already exists, he won't create it. And that leads nicely to Mystera: BURNDAYRAZ is guaranteed to appear on every map anyways. All this said, it wouldn't be a bad idea to move the Glyphs to the player's feet when they convert to these gods --[[Special:Contributions/94.7.130.253|94.7.130.253]] 15:14, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

3) Speaking of the Earthmother and the stoning spell, she's lame mostly because the spell is lame. It denies you experience and doesn't clear obstacles out of the way; it has no use except to make her happy and her reward isn't good enough. I suggest having the spell only work on monsters below your level, but count as a regular kill (giving experience, triggering rewards/punishments from the gods, etc.). This would make it useful in its own right and make the Earthmother less painful to follow.

:Rather than change the mechanic of the god and render the special Gorgon class somewhat irrelevant, why not just change the reward? +1HP per level per enemy petrified, perhaps. Or +1HP per monster level. -ChaoSpectre

::The Earthmother giving regular XP for stone kills seems quite fair, as it balances with you not being able to take those stones out of the way.

:::Some wild ideas --[[User:Lejonmanen|Lejonmanen]] 09:41, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
:::a) EM doubles MP recovery when exploring
:::b) Petrifying a monster regenerates MP equal to monster level
:::c) Each time a monster would petrify you, EM kills the monster and gives you +10% physical damage resistance (stone skin)
:::d) EM gives another rune (LEMMETRU) that creates a "tunnel", preserving the rock but enabling the hero to go through, for a cost of 1 permanent HP per level
:::e) Petrifying monsters creates a "tunnel" instead of a solid wall
:::f) "Knowledge of earth" - can see walls 3 tiles away without revealing. Like the eye of scouting, but only for walls
:::g) Destroying ENDISWAL glyph should please her.

4) Glitterfingers just helps you get money, right? You can stockpile money easily enough anyway. How about having him spawn some potion shops to spend it on?
:How about if Glitterfingers removed the cap on gold for that run only? If you had more than the max at the end of your run, then it would be reduced to the max. [[Special:Contributions/68.159.130.228|68.159.130.228]] 16:21, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
:He could certainly use something - right now he's vaguely useful to grind up some gold slightly faster between real games, and even then mostly only if you don't have Goblin unlocked. Giving 2 gold per kill instead of 1 - and maybe also removing the cap as mentioned above - probably still doesn't actually make him useful, but would be a start I guess. Glittergfingers should probably be revamped completely, but that can wait until the whole gold system is revamped.

5) Right now there's not much reason to renounce a god except to see what happens. I'd like the option pick a god from the start (like race and class) instead of spawning random alters, so why not use the god's curses as part of another unlock system? If you level up at least, say, 5 times AFTER earning a god's disfavor and still win the game, you get the option to start with him as your deity. As an adjunct to this, let the player brick an alter with the stone spell or shatter it with the wall-buster spell as a way of angering the deity.
:renouncing a God serves the purpose of being able to worship another one --[[User:Mtarini|Mtarini]] 17:04, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
::I was also able to renounce just to convert a glyph into a potion so that I had enough life to kill a boss.--[[User:Sxerks|Sxerks]] 02:22, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

6) Fizanko: to make every gods more usefull and varied, maybe having them spawning a glyph or a new trait for the player, unique to them after the player successfully attacked and destroyed the other deities altars, giving alternatively an incentive for the player to explore the whole dungeon to find every altars.
Could then be used to balance the less interesting gods by having them spawning a more interesting glyph/trait.

7) Mystera Annur is absolutely terrible. The mana bonus can be useful, sure, but reducing your attack power to one is absolutely crippling, especially given that BURNDAYRAZ is much weaker than the standard melee attack even for your average wizard. Either lower the damage penalty, or have Annur increase the power/decrease the cost of BURNDAYRAZ. --[[User:MrGuy|MrGuy]] 15:46, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

== Suggestions for the Scoring system ==

rickgriffin: Thoughts about the high score board:

1) Include which boss was defeated on the run.
: Agreed. Also what god they were worshiping, if any. --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]

2) Besides the top score board, also have separate boards for each class, so people have a reason to have high score runs without just selecting the 'best' class/race.
:Ideally there wouldn't be any clear best combos, and I think that is the goal down the road; there may be some combos that suck, but there shouldn't be any that dominate ranked games (I'm looking at you, Vampire & Human Rouge/Monk!) Not that having separate charts for each class would be a bad thing, I'm just saying the bigger issue is one of overall balance =) --[[User:Twinge|Twinge]]

* What about also having top score boards for each of the challenge dungeons, as well? [[User:Neongrey|Neongrey]] 21:04, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

* Now that I think about it, having a score breakdown would be a neat thing too, so you could see what all contributed to a high score. [[Special:Contributions/68.159.130.228|68.159.130.228]] 13:28, 21 March 2010 (UTC) (rickgriffin)

3) Berserkers wish to die in battle. When playing as a berserker, get a bonus for dying and a sizable penalty for retiring. --[[User:Egasimus|Egasimus]] 20:32, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

4) Have an off-line high-score table.--[[User:Egasimus|Egasimus]] 20:32, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

5) Damage dealt being a part of the scoring system should probably be capped, or removed entirely. As it stands, the maximum bonus for speed (an instant win) would be 60 * 3 * 15 = 27,000. The difference between a one minute win (impressively quick) and a two minute win (not bad) is only 1800 points. On the other hand, the max bonus earned by maximizing damage dealt (bringing all monsters to low hp, exploring to heal them, etc.) is literally over a hundred thousand, and easily achievable with a level 1 Human Sorcerer (infinite casts of 4 damage fireball, not "skill"). I feel like ending up with a mid-to-low tier high score somewhat detracts from the impressiveness of doing the entire dungeon in under a minute. Some quick ideas at other way of calculating scores:
* Score could be based entirely off 'moves made' (the fewer tiles traveled / clicks before killing the boss, the better)
* Have "lightning short" times give exponentially more points (Maybe start with a x 9 modifier to the time score, and every 30 seconds it drops by x1)
* Classify scores by "games under 5 minutes", "games under 10 minutes", etc.
* Break ranked mode into multiple modes, where scoring is done differently in each (a "speed runs" dungeon, a "fewest moves" dungeon, a "maximum damage" dungeon where monsters don't heal, etc.)
* It seems odd that ranked dungeons are randomly generated at all. The dungeon arrangement has a huge influence on a player's max potential score. [[User:Varuka|Varuka]]

== Suggestions for the glyph system ==

1) Certain glyphs - mainly the three teleportation spells - are vastly inferior to most other glyphs. Rather than try to make all spells equally useful, though, I suggest dividing glyphs into two categories: Master glyphs and Apprentice glyphs. Master glyphs would work as glyphs do now. Apprentice glyphs would be weaker and/or more costly and would give no bonus on conversion, but each game some of them would spawn next to the player's starting position. This would balance the glyphs and help eliminate hopeless starts.
: I like that there are random difficult starts. Don't turn in into a chess solitaire. ----

2) To go with the above idea, here's a suggested new spell: DUNBEESHOKD (Lightning Bolt) - 4 Mana. Deals 2 damage per player level to a monster. This would be an apprentice version of Fireball, suitable for giving to the player from the start in case they want to go the pure magic route.

3) Suggestions for specific spells:

....BLUDTUPOWA needs work. How about letting it turn a health potion into a mana potion instead? That would make it more generally useful while keeping with the Blood Mage's health-for-power theme.

....WEYTWUT teleports you somewhere useless or dangerous too often. How about having it only take you to shops, glyphs and alters? Or at least making it send you somewhere you haven't already explored?

....I already discussed fixing IMAWAL when I talked about the Earthmother earlier, but I'll repeat it here for completeness: restrict it to enemies below the player's level, but let it count as a normal kill for reward/penalty purposes.

....make LEMMESEE work as an eye of scouting until the player attacks a monster. Or make it scout only nearby interesting stuff (monsters, shops, altars and runes) without displaying what they are (use a question mark icon) -Lejonmanen

Limiting WEYTWUT to unexplored area would be a definite plus.

'''Rename BURNDAYRAZ.''' I understand and like all other glyph names. BURNDAYRAZ, however, I didn't decode until I came to this wiki! To me, it looks like either "Burned a Raise" or "Burn Day Raze", neither of which makes sense. Alternative suggestions: BABIKIU, TOSTOR, OOELDUNN, FIYABUNN (the last has a nice Jamaican twang to it). --[[User:Rsl12|Rsl12]] 23:02, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

== General suggestions==
'''Difficulty''': After getting pretty good at the game with certain strategies, the fun becomes beating certain dungeons with certain classes. I thought it'd be cool if it'd be possible to add some ability to increase the difficulty independently of class/race/dungeon, by adding bonus settings to place more (or bigger) bosses, or options to remove shops, not heal when exploring, etc.

'''OpenSource?''' DGM: Nandrew, I assume you're reading this since I got the link for this wiki from you. Are you going to share the source, so we can play with ideas you reject? Failing that, would you use the discussion page and comment on which ideas being presented here that you're considering using? I've got more ideas for the glyph system I suggested, but there's no point in talking about it if it will never be implemented.

'''Randomness -''' Jabberwock: One suggestion for the dodge - as it seems it is one of very few random elements after the game starts (maybe beside the Imp teleports), it is a little bit out of place. What if the order of the enemy miss was predetermined instead of random? That is, one of the five enemy hits misses - I receive hit no.1, 2 etc., and the no. 5 always misses... Would certainly make it more strategic.

'''Minimum gold -''' fall_ark: This might sound a little cheap but... how about adding a "minimum gold" bonus? Or change the saved gold system as a whole. I mean, after unlocking the Goblin race it becomes super easy to gain 50~70 gold in a few minutes, and before that I used to choose rogue to do some rounds of hoarding...It just feels a bit tedious. Or I'm just lazy and spoiled...

: I would like that your max gold go to full inbetteen rounds, basicly I max my gold with the goblin/trasmutat and just hit "retire" , doing this meny times can max gold - but - shouldnt the game just do this automaticaly "max" my gold since i can do this trick anyway?

:: On the contrary - on retiring without beating the dungeon boss, you shouldn't be able to keep all your gold. Hoarding sessions seem a bit unfair to me.--[[User:Egasimus|Egasimus]] 19:53, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

: I totally agree! What a waste of time. If you do have to do this use Goblin Wizard...--[[User:Greatdiwei|Greatdiwei]] 07:09, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

'''ports -''' There really should be a iPhone/iTouch version of Desktop Dungeons. I think it would be awesome on the platform. Dont know how hard to port it is but you know, a suggestion:D
zreaperz-
:or even for Android. It is definitly the kind of time sink i'd love to have in my pocket
::It would definitely work well on a handheld.
::: What about an iPad? The iPad is desperately needing a good roguelike :) --[[User:Greatdiwei|Greatdiwei]] 07:09, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

:Any chance of a version for Mac OS X?

'''Other Dungeon Bosses''' Rather than just level 10 enemies, how about in some harder modes, the actual gods are in the dungeon to fight? or maybe there could be a mode for that. Simply because stumbling in on Taurog for example would be a totally kickass moment. --[[User:RocketShark|RocketShark]] 12:56, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

 
'''Monster Tiles''': Might I suggest arbitrarily grouping different types of monsters into a tileset and then assigning a set randomly to a spawned dungeon? eg group off a set of 5-10 enemies... lets say in this case Orcs, Goblins & Ogres. Instead of the dungeon being populated with every enemy in the game, which gets increasingly bizarre with the number of available foes; This adds a lot more cohesion with very little spent in gross resources. --[[User:TokinAtheist|TokinAtheist]] 2 August 2010

 [[File:Biased.jpg]]

'''Placement biased tile sets''': Also I think it would do wonders for the game visually if the tiles in the dungeon had a placement bias. This trick can be done with very few lines of code and streamlines the appearance of the dungeon. It requires more work on behalf of the tile set authors but also gives them a lot more flexibility and control over the finished product. --[[User:TokinAtheist|TokinAtheist]] 2 August 2010 

== Suggestions for Objects / Shops ==

'''"Dungeons and Dragons basic player manual"''' - after you buy this (expensive) object, you gain one extra EXP for each GOLD you collect! :-D --[[User:Mtarini|Mtarini]] 22:59, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

== Suggestions for the classes ==

'''Religion oriented class? -''' It seems to me that the three current special classes could appear as Tier 4 classes.
* the "Transmuter" belongs to "Wizards",
* the "Crusader" belongs to "Fighters",
* the "Tinker" belongs to "Thieves".

That leaves the "Priest" line open for a new character: GOOD! because it is about time to have a ''Religion'' oriented class. Maybe one that senses altars, starts with an extra altar, and can belong to two religions (or, maybe, can get away with changing religions at any time). --[[User:Mtarini|Mtarini]] 22:25, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

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'''Tiers 5 classes?'''
* Thieves -> ''Ninjas'', specialized at stealth (see below)
* Fighters -> ''Man-at-arms'', specialized at armours (physical protection)?
* Priests -> ''Disbeliver'', specialized ''against'' religions? (someway)
* Wizards -> ''Alchimist'', specialized at potions?
: or maybe
* Wizards -> ''Archmages'': 2 MP regeneration, negative protections (take double phys damage), 0 start attack?

just brainstorming...--[[User:Mtarini|Mtarini]] 22:25, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

'''Special Class for defeating Lothlorien'''
All that hard work should be rewarded :) --[[User:Greatdiwei|Greatdiwei]] 07:11, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

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'''Ninjas''' - "a stealth assassin that acts in shadows" ''[class porposal]''

They have a glyph that allows them to go ''stealth mode'': in that mode, they explore the dungeon NOT revealing anything, but leaving stuff in shadow instead (just as the half-dragon's extended view radius, but at radius 1 not 2). So they sense monsters and stuff at radius 1, but cannot see what it is. That should feel like they are acting in total shadow. The very square they are in, the one "at radius 0", is the only square being actually explored. Ninjas can attack a monster in shadow (not knowing what it actually is - risky!), gaining first strike, huge bonuses, and some 50% chance of monster being "dazed" and not fighting back for that round. The monster (if survives) is then revealed anyway. If the ninja would be killed in response, it gets out of stealth mode with 1 HP instead (and, if appropriate, poisoned, mana burned, or even turned into stone, etc). One can get out of stealth mode anytime by clicking on the glyph again (at no costs).

Completing with the ninja might unlock the stealth glyph for other classes as well, but only the ninja should get the extra bonuses. So ninja would have, as traits: (1) starts with that glyph, (2) bonuses when attacking an unrevealed monster, (3) survives if killed by that monster. For other characters, attacking in stealth mode would be very very riscky (well, it ''would'' prevent life stealth from vampires, if they are killed).

However stealth-mode is useful and powerful, for anyone, as it allows one to preview things but waste very little "explored space". This could be balanced by negating the MP regeneration and/or one point of HP regeneration for the only square that is actually fully revealed (the one where the player is). The cost of activating the glyph itself should be 0.

--[[User:Mtarini|Mtarini]] 22:25, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

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Going4Paladin: The monk needs a buff, his last 2 skills are lovely, but when he loses half attack, he has nothing to kill with.... maybe he needs a poison immunity???

:The monk really doesn't need a buff. His DIAMOND BODY skill already allows you to take half damage from the start, and you're doing half damage to the enemy, so fights tend to simply take twice as long. But HAND TO HAND just has your Damage Bonus start at -50%. Each Attack Powerup you find or Glyph you convert as a Human increases this by 10%. So after 5 Glyphs/Powerups, you're back to base damage, whilst your enemies are still doing half damage to you.

:The net result of these two abilities is that every boost to Damage Bonus has *double* the effect than for other characters, and that's one hell of a buff. The same applies to any extra Physical or Magical Resistance items you may eventually find in the shops: they provide twice as much help to the Monk because his resistance is already so high.

:So yes, while he can be a little difficult to work with at Level 1 due to damage being rounded down, he swiftly gets much stronger as you gain sources of Damage Bonus. And his enhanced Health Regen makes hit and run tactics much much easier. --[[Special:Contributions/94.7.130.253|94.7.130.253]] 05:48, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

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Fizanko : i agree with DGM up there, i believe IMAWALL is in a need of a rework in my opinion, as in its current status it brings no advantage in comparison to every other glyph that cost a base 5 mana or even less, as by using it not only you deny yourself the xp of a petrified monster (and in Desktop Dungeons you need every xp you can) but by mistake you can block you own way.

The only use is for The Earthmother deity, but still i don't see the +1 HP gain to balance the xp you will not get from the petrified monster and the blocked path it creates, or just converting it for a bonus.

I can see and understand that to be a difficult glyph to balance, but i think it should count for a kill (so delivering the xp) when used for monsters that are below your own level (so you can't use it on a boss to get an "easy win"), or making it only in a limited amount of use so you can't overuse it.

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To round out the tier 1 classes, how about showing the locations of the altars to the priest, and the stores to the thief?
:I can see the benefits/symmetry there, but I find thieves to be pretty awesome already, and I can see the effective playstyle of priests, so I dunno if this is really needed.

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Okay, maybe I'm just bad at using them, but bloodmages strike me as pretty terrible. I can see where the devs were going with it, but it starts with a glyph that can only be used effectively by one class (and not even well by the bloodmage!), an ability that the vampire already gets and can make way better use of, and a boost to mana potions that also carries a cost in health that negates the benefit from blood pools anyway. So I think we need to replace the tier 3 wizard class.

*The class should have a playstyle centered around a glyph of some sort, which is unlocked for other classes upon winning and should ideally be usable by anyone.
*The class should also have a playstyle that focuses on glyph usage, in keeping with wizards and sorcerers.
*I'll put down a few ideas that sound awesome in my head right now, feedback on any (or more suggestions) would be super appreciated:
**Enchanters, which start with the DINTURT glyph (-20% to enemy's next attack), use less mana to cast glyphs that give bonuses like GETINDARE, BYSSEPS, and such, and gets higher attack boosts per level at the cost of lower health boosts per level.
**Occultists, which start with the BIYAPAL glyph (cast on a monster to have it assist in your next attack if it can move next to a monster, expensive and only affects one monster at a time), can move through monsters, and has lower damage to start with.
**Wild mages, which start with the WUTZINDABOCKS glyph (low cost, random glyph effect), generate 1 more of either shops, potions, or glyphs, and have a slight chance to use up no mana in casting a spell.

== Still uncategorized ==

Some more Random idea:

Other Offensive spells (Difficult to implement, because the fireball is pretty well balanced at the moment)
Have 1 off glyphs that can be cast once, so a big Fireball explosion, maybe 12 damage per level for example?

Have an offensive spell that either ties in with Max Mana, or your attack Power...?

A spell like poison, maybe "STASIS" that binds the enemy and as you explore the dungeon it loses health. Although this would be like poison, maybe to balance it you lose health as well?

Attack Ideas:

Make a class like a thief or ranger, that does ranged damage. How i see this working would be 1 "free" attack before the monster retaliates and fights back. Conversely some monsters could have the "Cover or Awareness" ability that counters this.
: The problem with this is that it's essentially equivalent to attacking and having first strike on your last hit - either way it's a sequence of blows where you hit them one more time than they hit you. It's a different implementation of a mechanic already in game. --[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 15:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC) 

Class ideas:

There are classes that only use the health stat and not mana, how about the other way around? SO only mana? Maybe an Angel, or Elemental? Also for these classes have them do something usefull with the Mana or Health potions/Power ups..

Other random ideas:

Wildmage: When you use a mana potion you get a random effect.
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Quests and multiple ending solutions

I might be fun and had some tactical challenges to had some basic quest with different ways to kill it. For example for a zombie game I made to win you can either :
- Survive the zombies untill the morning (implies lots of barricading and fighting)
- Break the charm causing them to appear (implies to be lucky enough to find a specific object, travel a bit in a dangerous house and get exposed to danger for a while)
You could have here:
- Save the child haunted by a deamon. Either kill the deamon (easy and brutal), or find a way to cast exorcism (should require some object and be more subtle and tricky to apply. For example every new level you get he is surrounded by nasty creatures you have to fight)
- The war. there are 2 different armies on the field. Your target is to kill the boss who is the leader of one army. you can either kill him, or kill all is army, and the other, (if you killed none of them) would kill themselves the boss
...

If might be even better if the targets and different path are discovered in game, with a bit of randmoness.

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Achievements: This game needs something to keep us addicted after getting the last unlock. The high score list won't do it for all players, but an achievements list would. It also provides a handy point system for a 'trait' system.

Traits: Let players select benefits and penalties before each match. This can require 'points' (A certain number to start with, with more available as you complete achievements, or simply one point per dungeon beaten with each class) have an impact on the final score, or both. Example: Jerry selects four traits before his game. Heavy Handed, Explorer, Blackballed, and Veteran.
Heavy Handed prevents him from gaining any Dodge or First Strike abilities, but doubles damage dealt to creatures below level 5. (Score x 1)
Explorer adds 50% to health regeneration and +1 to mana regeneration from exploration. (Score x0.5)
Blackballed removes all shops from the map. (Score x1.25)
Veteran adds +1 xp per kill, as per the Fighter trait. (Score x0.8)
Jerry finishes the map with a score of 28000. After multipliers, he is awarded a final score of 14000 to submit to the leaderboards.
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Brainstorming new glyphs:

* IPHEELWEEK (Weaken) - Lower monster's attack power by 10%.
* WARIZHEL (Mass Charm) - Every monster makes an attack on an adjacent monster. (High-level monsters act first, targeting the lowest-level monster they can reach.)
* HIVOLTIJ (Chain lightning) - Deals 3 damage per level and leaps to any adjacent monsters.
* IKANSI (Selective Amnesia) - Unexplore twelve random tiles. (12 == casting cost.)
: A wizard could cast this, explore the tiles (possibly with LEMMISI) and regen hp AND be one mana up. Also consider that there's an item that doubles your mana regen, and I don't think a glyph like this is workable. --[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 15:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC) 
* BEGON (Banish) - Instantly kill monster of lower level. Add their level to max health.
* CRAMBLEDEG (Warp world) - Scramble the dungeon. (Generate a new dungeon layout with the same number of monsters, shops, runes, etc. as the present.) Vanishes after one use.
: What about the state of visible/invisible tiles? Sounds like it would be either broken or...weird. --[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 15:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC) 
* TOKIWOTOMARE (Time Stop) - Your next attack is completely unopposed. (Special monster abilities such as blink and life steal also turn off for the duration.) The strain on your body permanently reduces your damage bonus by 10%.
: Again, very similar to first strike. --[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 15:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC) 
* NOTUITZME (Polymorph) - Transform monster into random monster of the same level.
* GLOINZADARK (Destruction) - Cause mass destruction centered on you. (Destroys all walls, shops, altars and floor objects within 3 tiles. Monsters 1 tile away take 6 * level damage, 2 tiles away take 4 * level damage, 3 tiles away take 2 * level damage. You go to 1 life.) Vanishes after one use.
: When would you use this? --[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 15:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC) 
* SLEPOVREZN (Monster Migration) - Create new monster of level 1 to 9 somewhere in dungeon.
: Desktop Dungeons is meant to be about scarcity - this gets you something useful for almost nothing. Even if it's not something you can beat now, it'll be something you can beat later. --[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 15:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC) 
* CUMONDEN (Enhance Monster) - Level up target monster.
* IZALWAZRITE (Summon Store) - Summon a phantasmal merchant. (One chance to purchase a random item.)
* BULKUP (Enhance Strength) - Increases base damage and max health by 1.
* INRI (Holy Symbol) - Drive monster back with 50% knockback damage, or 100% against undead.
* ZENERCARD (Clairvoyance) - Detect the location of any items and monsters within 3 tiles.
* NOUSIIT (Invisibility) - Gives 50% dodge chance for your next action.

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Achievements:
* GODLESS - Follow no deity.
* AGNOSTIC - Follow all three available gods in a single run.
* SKIMMER - Reveal less than 50% of the map.
* PACIFIST - Killed boss but more than half of total monsters alive.
* THRIFTY - Didn't visit store.
* SCROOGE - Exited dungeon with 30 or more gold then you entered with.

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Much like how vampires follow Dracul for free, Binlor should do something special for dwarves who follow him. [[User:Neongrey|Neongrey]] 03:11, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

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The dungeon specific monsters (naga, imp, vampire and armour) are pretty fun guys, and it would be nice to see them in the main dungeon. Perhaps as a reward for beating their dungeon with [x] classes.

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Petrification doesn't have any purpose but to please the Earthmother god. And the Earthmother doesn't have any purpose other than to make petrification useful. That's not good!

SIMPLE IDEA:
Make petrification work in same way as a gorgon's death gaze: it counts as a kill in every way, but only works on monsters of less than some % health. Now it's a very situational assassination skill -- super-good against some bosses (like Super Meat Man) and super-bad against others (like Gharbad.)

But this doesn't help that the gorgon class' innate petrification is either trivial (so long as they keep their ENDISWAL glyph) or game-wreckingly harmful (if they don't.) So:

MORE COMPLEX IDEA:
Stoned monsters become statues which the character can push around the dungeon sokoban style.

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Love the game. Gushing aside, criticisms:

Classes:
The best classes seem to be "mix" classes: thief and priest, for example. Classes that rely primarly on melee or magic (fighter, wizard) seem to have their work seriously cut out for them.

Fighter is awful, and could use a buff. Perhaps "regenerate" his death save? (every 5 kills?)
Wizard is poor, even with the -1mp: largely because (imo) the only way to kill things with magic is fireball, and at high levels fireball does not scale well at all. Perhaps this more an issue with fireball, though.
Vampire is ungodly powerful, largely down to it having fireballs out the wazoo. Perhaps remove its ability to use magic? (and give it a buff somewhere else?)
Crusader seems weak to me... probably because momentum caps out. I have a hellish time defeating bosses with crusader, because after the first hit, damage drops significantly. Also, fireball causes momentum to reset - not sure if thats intended, but it renders fireball pretty much useless.

Glyphs:
PISOF and WEYTWUT are both pretty much useless (unless you get trapped, but even still, id rather have pretty much anything else).
IMAWAL as noted many times above, is awful. Other people have good suggestions.
LEMMISI, even with the trick, I feel is underpowered: largely because once you run out of spaces to explore, it becomes useless. Perhaps reduce the MP cost to 1? Incidentally, it also causes vampire life leech to trigger. Not sure if thats meant.
APHEELSIK makes or breaks games, for many classes. Taking down Super Meat Man (or many others) becomes trivial with poison: if you dont have it, it becomes incredibly difficult (in some cases impossible - try take down Super Meat Man with a wizard, for example). As a possible alternative to messing around with poison, nerfing Boss Regen rate may help "fix" several aspects of the game.
BLUDTOPOWA is awful at high level. ~16 health for 1 MP is a rip. Increasing the MP gain or reducing the health drained (perhaps by half) would make it less awful, and would buff magic users.
BURNDAYRAZ as mentioned above, doesnt scale well. Magic users generally feel gimped as a result.
BYSSEPS could probably do with a "fail" if already cast. Not really important.

Bosses:
Some bosses seem significantly easier than others. Part of the problem is what boss you get randomly assigned: perhaps thats just the nature of the game, but if i see a Tower of Goo as a melee class, I may as well just restart. Super meat man seems horrendously impossible without poison.
: it is not --[[User:Mtarini|Mtarini]] 19:41, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Other stuff:
As others have said, having to farm between games is sucky and encourages grinding. Remove the gold cap, start off every game with the bonus you would've got for clearing the crypt multiple times, and dont have gold transfer. Also, rather than having certain squares cause popups (such as altars or bosses), why not have the information appear at the side (and disappear if you move away)? It seems to break the game, and after the 300th boss conversation, I dont really care what they have to say. (Also, I had to fight a boss who was beside an altar, using poison. Every time I moved beside him, I got an altar popup. Bleh)

Anyway, as I said, love the game and hope it continues to improve. --[[Special:Contributions/82.35.212.80|82.35.212.80]] 19:22, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

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More people keeping an eye on spam and maybe only contributions for registered users. All this spam ;/

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Should gorgons really still turn things to stone when they kill them with the fireball? They die from damage, not from the death gaze. [[User:Neongrey|Neongrey]] 14:21, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

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Lots of assorted ideas: 
1. Slightly randomize the amount of goodies available in the dungeon. Perhaps one round there'd be one less gold pile and one more attack upgrade, or one less glyph and one more health potion, or an extra 5th level monster, or whatever. It makes it more interesting if two identical characters can reach the end game with different proportions. Naturally, there should be a wider variety of useful glyphs (I pretty much find myself using the fireball and poison above everything else) and gods (Enough gods are of dubious use to make it possible that I wouldn't want any of the gods) to supplement this. 
2. I thought of a way to make PISOF useful: 
2a. Have monsters guard the tiles around them, and if you try to pick up something off the floor next to them (or use an altar/shop next to them? (or attack an enemy next to them??)) they get an attack on you, either at full strength or at diminished strength and without their normal on-hit effects. That way you might want to teleport a monster away to get at its goodies scot free. Spend mana to save HP (or to not die) (or to not get poisoned). 
2b. Generate the level such that monsters explicitly block the paths to caches of stuff, or prevent you from picking up stuff near them outright. (Perhaps only on the orthagonals?) 
3. I thought of a way to make ENDISWAL...not useful, but preserve the feel of it: 
Right now, it feels like it's an item that would have limited tactical benefit (grabbing bits of explore from the edges of the map, going around a monster blocking your way, etc.) but otherwise doesn't fit in the game, so a god has also been shoehorned in, but he doesn't make it too appealing either, what with gold being a mostly metagame material AND there being another gold-based god.
Why not implement a system of doors, with keys lying around the map (or dangling off of enemy's belts in a tantalizing fashion), with various glyph/class/item assisted ways to pick, force or circumnavigate them? Then ENDISWAL would have a clear purpose (getting around doors), or it could be replaced with a specific make-the-door-go-away glyph. You'd need a smarter level generator to ensure that all levels would be reasonable even with doors, but I think a smarter level generator is a good goal to strive for anyway. You could even colour code keys, so that unnecessarily difficult monster is worth killing to get its goodie cache, or maybe the boss is hiding behind a door which its henchmen has the key to, or so on! Also, chests, mmm. Keys keys keys. 
(Also, renouncing the Earthmother shouldn't turn EVERYTHING into stone, just drop enough stone to hamper your life unless you have teleportation or wall removal.) 
4. I thought of a way to make WEYTWUT useful: 
Make it a controlled teleport. Click a spot on the map, and the game will put you on the nearest open tile. Now you can use it to your advantage in conjunction with any way to sense monsters/glyphs.
Might be interesting to consider other forms of detection to compliment this - perhaps a form of detection that reveals the 9 and 10 level monsters, or revealing all of X item, or all the altars... 
5. I thought of a way to make IMAWAL useful: 
Ditch the idea of it instakilling a monster. It's a nonsensical idea in a game where monsters only threaten you if you threaten them. Instead, it would be great if it did something to mitigate the amount of damage they could do to you - perhaps a -% damage increase that 'regenerated' either with every exchange of blows or with every tile explored. 
6. In general, it'd be neat to vary the monsters up a bit more - I didn't realize so many of the monsters had the same 100% for one or both of the stats! If too many things share the exact same numbers, you run into a kind of 'threshold' problem: if your stats aren't quite high enough to surpass X barrier, they aren't helping at all, but as soon as they are you can go to town. 
7. Glyph idea - X% physical or magical or both resist for your next hit only? Like a defensive BYSSEPS. 
8. Some way to burn gold for a raw effect? Not sure if it'd be class or glyph related, but it'd make for a cool theme. I'm kind of picturing it being dragged onto the glyph exchanger to burn it for a stat boost ala the racial effects. 
9. A race that can burn a glyph for a supercharged next hit - some combination of extra damage, resist and ignoring extra enemy effects. Picturing 'boss killer/level catapulter'. (Actually, talking about all this brings to mind the idea of having a 'damage potion' and a 'resistance potion' - or would that be two resistance potions? - to supplant the two current potions, but maybe that'd make things too homogeneous, so perhaps not. 
10. How about an enemy with an innate chance to evade? I picture a cloud of bats for some reason. Maybe because they're Goddamned Bats. 
11. The pathfinding should try and involve moving to hit a monster such that it reveals nearby tiles, because doing so is often unwanted behaviour. 
12. Thinking about keys et all earlier got me onto the idea of traps - but is that too much of a jerk move for the game? I guess it'd be a fundamental mechanic change, so maybe not worth talking about. 
--[[User:Patashu|Patashu]] 14:23, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Desktop Dungeons

2010-08-20T18:43:27Z

Yidda:

Really need to get the front page protected and give some peoples special access. [[User:Xeriar|Xeriar]] 11:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Is the download link provided broken? It looks like it's out of bandwidth -- is there an alternate place where the game can be downloaded?

Have you tried the alternate links provided? And sorry about the slow response WRT the spammer, I've appointing some admins and blocked the necessary IP --[[User:Nandrew|Nandrew]] 00:52, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Just a note on that sentence :
"Desktop Dungeons was designed as a quick 5-15 minute mini-roguelike experience". It might have been designed so, but for me an average game lasts between 30 and 45 mn. I might be very slow, or Desktop dungeon slightly moved away from its original design.
Buy less than an hour is still much better than daaaays for a roguelike. --[[User:Flap|Flap]] 09:43, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm speaking from ignorance here, but I wonder if we could get this wiki to have the game versions at the top of each page, so that for things that changed significantly, we can maintain the older info. The Dwarf Fortress Wiki does this very well:
http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Stockpile

but they're the only ones that I've seen pull this off
18:43, 20 August 2010 (UTC)