Big cheer for impending content & speculation!

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Big cheer for impending content & speculation!

Postby Lujo on Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:17 pm

Me being an obstinate d**k aside:

I'd like to offer a big, sincere cheer to the devs for the impending implementation of the stuff they said was being putt off until the very end of development!

Huzzah!

The final secret class! I'm stoked - what will it be? A hybrid? A spiker? A regen fighter? A blatant glorious cheatcode?

The "extra" quests? Three class Daemonic Library final class unlock? The obligatory class challenges?

What do you guys think?







On a related note - loose ends are being tied up! Doubledoom/Crystal Ball shifting was actually huge in my eyes. So was the cydstep re-buff (always though it would signalize a definite sign that the beta is drawing to a close). There's a few more things that could do with a touch up. I really hope I can squeeze one more full comb through of the game once the codex is online to test it out before it goes live (or even if it goes online and then gets a nice patch). I know I've been spent as a feedback provider for a while now, and that fresh insight would be more welcome, but there might very well be some use in one more "concise writeup" series. A more concise one, since so much has been smoothed out since the last one.

So one more time, before we get lost in the new content and slump into inactivity waiting for the codex, what has been infinitely left for later / given up hope on in the same vein as a doubledoom/cydstepp alterations:

What I know is:

- The difficulty level might've been scaled down a bit too much in case of certain dungeons in the cydstep/monk nerf aftermath (came up nicely in the "certain hard dungeons are in fact easier than makes sense)
- Southern Swamp in particular is mysteriously easy (could maybe use a weakling second boss?)
- The two major complicated tasks dungeons have been nerfed too hard over time (Berserker camp and Magma mines). Maybe.

- Darvin has been annoyed with JJ for the longest while, possibly with a good reason
- Taurog could maybe use his damage boost on unstoppable fury back. It's a bit nasty with monks, but wth, we tested all the other stuff extensively enough (I guess)
- Could Naga Couldron maybe get a passive 5-10% increase regardless of debuffs? All the other vicious rewards are majorly kick ass compared to it... Maybe if it started you off with a debuff or two, like slow and stuff, to make it less dependent on other sources of debuffs. Hmm, this warrant it's own thread :)
- What about the thief? He was way too good once upon the time, but the tinker and the transmuter make awesome generalists and he has more competition for the role regardless of power, so maybe rebuff him? Who knows?

- What about the way magic resistance on monsters works? Are there good enough reasons to keep it the way it is?

Ok, I've overdone it as usual, but hey - even if nothing comes off this, I'm sure a nice, disciplined playthrough will have me come up with more minor and easily tweakable things.
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Re: Big cheer for impending content & speculation!

Postby The Avatar on Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:31 pm

First of all, I'm betting on a goat for the secret class, and I would love it if the quests were the missing 12 class challenges (although that's probably a bit too much to ask). On the other hand, I believe the dev said they were joke quests, so it could be ridiculous things like getting 8 badges in one run on den of danger, or silly stuff like winning southern swamp without killing a plant. I frankly have no idea, but I can't wait.

My thoughts on your complaints (if it is fair to call them such. I don't mean you are upset or anything about them, but I couldn't find a better word):

1. HHoS is far too easy. Providing the orb of lusory basically wins the dungeon for you, not to mention the indomitable being a joke. To bring it up to labyrinth/shifting passages difficulty, I would bring the orb down to 25% resists and buff the indomitable's damage and hp. Ick is the other (surprisingly) easy one, but really only for vets. New players are destroyed by the plants until the figure out how to clear them effectively. I would suggest less plants (but not by much, or just remove some of the nastier plants), and have Itsssama buffed back up to 75% resists.
2. Southern Swamp's only challenge, which is virtually nonexistent, is the plants. I would suggest making two snake bosses or maybe having the current one revive with half stats (obviously both changes would need new names).
3. Berserker camp is far to easy. It is easier than Doubledoom. It has a random boss, then a second boss who is like bleaty with a tiny bit more hp, who doesn't reach to even half of bleaty's damage when he berserks. He is the easiest level 10 boss in the game. I would recommend adding back his two DPs. It won't be impossible for the sorcerer, the sorcerer crushes DPs. As for magma mines, I think it is fine where it is.
4. Darvin's complaint on JJ (which I agree with), is that he is a complete powerhouse if found early, while absolutely useless while found late. My aditional minor complaint is that JJ's powers are incredibly non-random. It would be much better to have chaos avatar add an ability from a random other class, and totally change boost health and mana, to something more random.
5. I think Taurog is fine where he is. He is a great introductory god that stays great until vicious, when you have to be smart with him, maybe taking only 1 or 2 pieces of equipment before conversion.
6. I'll see the other thread.
7. I agree that the thief could use a little bit of love. How about bringing the potions up to 40-30?
8. Magic res on monsters is great for BURNDAYRAZ and APHEELSIK, but for everything else it is a supreme pain. I think it should stay the same (it would be too minor if it didn't affect WONAFYT, IMAWAL, etc), but I don't like it.
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Re: Big cheer for impending content & speculation!

Postby Dreamdancer on Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:34 pm

The ideas to make some of the hard dungeons a little harder i like.
Speaking as a non-vet it seems that from hard to vicious (even more from hard to normal vicious token) is a big step in difficulty. Making some of the hard dungeons a little bit harder (like Avatar's suggestions) could make the transition somewhat smoother.

As for the new content. I'm looking forward to it and the new kingdom which i will start.
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Re: Big cheer for impending content & speculation!

Postby Lujo on Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:05 pm

#Avatar:

1. Agree - a slightly more buff Indomitable, and either a change to the orb of lusory or removal but a slightly less intimidating monster set. Additionaly - something might be done about the vicious indomitable - without corrosion/dr antics he'd be a nightmare, an with it he's a complete gimmick. And it's an obscure and unintuitieve gimmick.
2. People have been complaining about the southern areas (newbies). I'm not sure what's the catch, but maybe "Plant" should be a subtype because I get the feeling that their ability sheet is confusing. Makes them look scarier than they are.
3. Or at least a decent bridge blocker like the havendale troll. Maybe an ice troll?
4. Idk about randomness and non randomness - I find I very rarely use his only random boon and would change only it or make it repeatable with a scaling cost or something. The problem is, I think, petition being too expensive to take late, and mana drain/burn/poison/curse being to risky to get hit with. I'd say the best deal would be to have petitions cost scale downwards with your level.
8. Yeah, I'm having second thoughts on the "change magic res!" idea - it's incredibly annoying and random, it would actually make wonnafyt and wheytwut too good if you cold just popcornbowl everything every time. Still, I whish it worked somehow different but it's probably too late for that. (And I like it for burndayraz and apheelsick, it's the random spell dodges for utility that's annoying).

#New content:

God, I whish there were non-se content monster class challenges. On the other hand, thats 12-16 more dungeons to make, and to complete for a total completion playthrough...
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Re: Big cheer for impending content & speculation!

Postby Darvin on Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:26 pm

Southern Swamp in particular is mysteriously easy (could maybe use a weakling second boss?)

Medusa or Tomithy would work nicely; easy enough that they won't increase the difficulty much (in fact, for a veteran the addition of Tomithy might make it easier, since he's effectively XP and gold fodder). Avatar's suggestions are good too.


The two major complicated tasks dungeons have been nerfed too hard over time (Berserker camp and Magma mines). Maybe.

Berserker Camp definitely, Magma Mines I'd say no. Personally I dislike that the 100% resistances got changed to actual immunity; it was pretty cool when you could use resist-down effects on them, and it made "specialist magma mines" one of those interesting and unique challenges. The resulting change to the specialist badge has been a real let-down in my eyes; the only dungeon where that badge is meaningful now is Creeplight.


Taurog could maybe use his damage boost on unstoppable fury back. It's a bit nasty with monks, but wth, we tested all the other stuff extensively enough (I guess)

I'd actually liked that this encouraged early use of unstoppable fury; made a nice decision as to whether you wanted to save it to spike the boss or leverage it for a long-term advantage.

Taurog has always had the problem of being too Monk-friendly, and I wish there were a graceful way to deal with that.


What about the thief? He was way too good once upon the time, but the tinker and the transmuter make awesome generalists and he has more competition for the role regardless of power, so maybe rebuff him? Who knows?

Once the Trisword was nerfed, the Thief should have been re-buffed. More than any class (with the possible exception of the Warlord and Rogue, who kick enough ass as it is) he synergized with that item, and its loss hit him very hard.

I'd rather his potions be kept at their current level (so he's not too much of a halfling/gnome party) and his other class features receive the buffing.


1. HHoS is far too easy

Agreed; hard Indomitable has been heavily over-nerfed. With the Orb of Lusory on the field and his diminishing damage, a return to 50 DP would probably be fine.


3. Berserker camp is far to easy ... He is the easiest level 10 boss in the game

Nah, Tomithy is easier. Close second, though.


(And I like it for burndayraz and apheelsick, it's the random spell dodges for utility that's annoying).

Maybe meet in the middle? Have the transportation effect of WEYTWUT/WONAFYT always work, but the slow effect be blocked by magic resistance. This prevents magic resistance from blocking off exploration while allowing it to block popcorn bowling.


Now, on to Jehora Jeheyu. Here is my opinion:

1) remove health drain from his list of punishments, or at minimum cap it out at 10 HP.
2) when JJ gives the mana burn punishment, it only invokes the status ailment and does not remove your current mana (bringing it more in line with poison).
3) starting piety for JJ correlates with the number of revealed monsters on screen (still randomized, though)

Taken together, point 1 and 2 make it realistic to play without petition, and point 3 makes it easier to jump in with partial exploration. This greatly opens up Jehora Jeheyu's potential game plans. I'd say you could run this on its own and see how it goes.
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Re: Big cheer for impending content & speculation!

Postby Lujo on Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:56 pm

Like Darvins comments, can't debate some right now, but here's a few more minor and flavourful ideas:

1) Magma Mines - has 3 goblins and always tanks the goblin bone throphy. Well, nothing can be done about that, but I was thinking that the 2 bodyguards could maybe becom trolls? They never leave throphies behind so the "no troll trophy" situation remains the same, but at least trolls get some more spotlight.
2) Southern Swamp - a second boss might be intimidating for newbies and the trophy would be a problem because medusa would overlap with stheno (very next dungeon). Otherwise Tomithy or Medusa would be my top picks too. Having a purple viper boss with really low health might be interesting, though, forcing you to explore looking for it :)
3) Southern Swamp - But the idea I've had was to introduce the 999 damage plants - with plant matter as drops (and make the plant matter give you a minor buff). Finding ways to clear them would be educational :)


And one more thing:

4) The vegetarian vampire subdungeon is a pain to navigate. You have to click on the parchment, then remember what the combo was, then hit one plant, then click on it again... There really ought to be a way to make it smoother and more approachable (and not be easily done with a notepad to the side).

And one more thing:

5) Having an ice troll (what's up with me and trolls?) serve as a guardian in Berserker camp could tie in nicely to make the dungeon a lot trickier. If you deal with him in a non-combat fashion (for whatever price), that's a tax on resources. However if you do fight him, you have to level up early with what you have available on your side of the bridge - and that makes all the berserkers level up. It might be an interesting idea.
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Re: Big cheer for impending content & speculation!

Postby Darvin on Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:54 pm

Having a purple viper boss with really low health might be interesting, though, forcing you to explore looking for it :)

Or just have the Purple Viper boss not have blink (since Getandafax already has that shtick) and be strictly a mana-burning snake boss. One mana burn, one poison. Then mix in some poison plants with the mana burn plants the dungeon already has and you have a nice poison/burn theme going on with a slightly higher difficulty.
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Re: Big cheer for impending content & speculation!

Postby Dreamdancer on Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:01 pm

Darvin wrote:
Having a purple viper boss with really low health might be interesting, though, forcing you to explore looking for it :)

Or just have the Purple Viper boss not have blink (since Getandafax already has that shtick) and be strictly a mana-burning snake boss. One mana burn, one poison. Then mix in some poison plants with the mana burn plants the dungeon already has and you have a nice poison/burn theme going on with a slightly higher difficulty.


This sounds like a really nice idea :P
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Re: Big cheer for impending content & speculation!

Postby The Avatar on Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:33 pm

Agreed.

@Lujo: I like the goblin theme for magma mines. As for berserker camp, what about having an ice troll that's toll is unloading a bunch of small space unconvertible ice blocks into your inventory. Talk about a pain.
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Re: Big cheer for impending content & speculation!

Postby Lujo on Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:45 pm

The Avatar wrote:As for berserker camp, what about having an ice troll that's toll is unloading a bunch of small space unconvertible ice blocks into your inventory. Talk about a pain.


:lol: I support that! :D

It's also educational, it looks like a good deal, until you actually do it. :D However, I think it should be 2 rows, not one, for challenge sake. Maybe.

Also - the purpe mana burn snake idea without blink is probably nice.
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