Rate the Vicious Dungeons!

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What's Your Favorite Vicious Dungeon?

Demonic Library
5
26%
Namtar's Lair
5
26%
Dragon Isles
1
5%
Naga City
6
32%
Vicious Halls of Steel
1
5%
Vicious Gaan-Telet
1
5%
 
Total votes : 19

Re: Rate the Vicious Dungeons!

Postby rdtheta on Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:25 pm

Wow, this doesn't match up with my experiences at all. I'm just at the point of working my way through the vicious dungeons for the first time (and have been for weeks, I guess). Maybe it has to do with with items I unlocked in which order, or which strategies I thought of first (I didn't start reading the forums until recently), but here are my thoughts:
I tried out various vicious dungeons when I ran out of hard dungeon quests. 50 death protections got me scared and alone in a room with 3 bosses blew my mind.
1) I unlocked the Half-Dragon first of the monster classes, Dragon Isles was also my first vicious win. I don't believe I had any one strategy that made it click: my wins so far are with warlord, assassin, sorceror.
2) Was so confused about how to deal with the other vicious dungeons I went to the forums for the first time to look up stuff, found I was missing some items, so I went back and got those.
3) but it was the alchemist scroll that finally got me through Naga City. I used this strategy with 3 different classes:rogue, thief, bloodmage.
4) then I went back to Namtar's, more confident now with the alchemist scroll, and beat it first time with the rogue. Haven't gone back.
5)I still couldn't seem to take down 50 death protections. I tried out different things, eventually I found prepping Yendor +knockback worked. I used that for all three: Half-dragon, sorceror, beserker.
And I haven't managed Demonic Library yet or GaanTalet yet.
In terms of enjoyment, I liked dragon isles originally because I could manage it, But Naga City wins out now because it's just such an everything-must-go god-converting fiasco. forced me to start playing around with the gods more, where before I was generally picking one god and sticking with it.
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Re: Rate the Vicious Dungeons!

Postby Lujo on Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:53 pm

I guess mine would be:

(mixt feelings) Gaan'Telet - I like me some giant puzzles, although I could put the "remove necessity for Soul Orb" as a sig. I like it best, but I'd rate it the worst if that helps finally getting AA's nerfed (not removed, NERFED).

(Most enjoyable) - Naga City - godmongering shannenigans down below, and "how much can you squeeze out of it sandbox" on top, this one has it all. I'ts like a mini Gaan'Telet with challenges of it's own.

(I don't like / has major flaws / has balancing issues due to unrelated updates) - Every other one. I don't like dungeons that force me to fight stuff 10 levels above me as I find the concept abhorrent. Basicaly, it means it's possible and even easier in any sub-VICIOUS dungeon, which upon "discovering" a way to do it makes the rest of the content lose replay value big time. The difference between the others and Naga City / Gaan'Telet is that you KNOW you've been given extra resources (silly amount of altars), and what you can pull off there you can't pull of anywhere else. Just my opinion.

To make a difference between the "fundamentaly flawed IMO" and "busted by unrelated updates":

a) Fundamentaly Flawed:

Namtars Lair - the fact that it's doable at all is sort of worrying to me. I really don't like this one. Maybe it's just my preffered playstyles, but this is a major content killer for me.

Demonic Library - same thing, really, I know it's fun, and it's certanly puzzly and colourfull, but if there were just one less red djinn i'd feel better about completing it in regards to the ther stuff. And I really whish the final boss had a different artwork.

Dragon Isles - the dungeon that gains it's vicious status by simply sticking every fat basic/iconic monster in one place and tells you to deal with it. Really, really don't like it. It feels lazy as hell.

b) Busted due to unrelated updates:

Well, the VHoS and Gaan'Telet and Dragon Isles (fall's under both categories for me). Gaan'Telet's at least enjoyble as a "how far can I go", the other one's not s much.
Last edited by Lujo on Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rate the Vicious Dungeons!

Postby The Avatar on Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Why do you hate Demonic Library/Namtar's Lair? Demonic Library may pit you against 5 level 10 demons, but a level 8 can take them down easily. In fact, they are about as hard as an average level 10 monster. They have no boss stats. And because of this you can kill them really early, but you don't have to. And Namtar's lair is epic. While the stats and abilities could use a bit of a change, I love the concept.
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Re: Rate the Vicious Dungeons!

Postby Lujo on Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:04 pm

Oh the content on both is epic, don't get me wrong, but the stats make a win there invalidate any feelings of achievment you might have had from any previous runs. The fact you can do it with ease - REALLY invalidates any challenge the lesser levels ever had. Thats the "fundamentally" part - if this kind of challenge is doable at all with the stats the way they are, then the rest of the game is sort of really pointless.

And since they are static, "fixed" challenges, once you beat them or learn te few strats that work, then THEY lose replay value. That's my problem with them.

I could call the first group "content killers", really. You have a dozen levels worth of challenges in one place with the same possible starting / resource loadout as any other dungeon. Which means a strat that works there will probably work anywhere else as well, which is not the case with the 2 I like.

Dragon isles itself makes any sub-VICIOUS level without a MEAN twist that gives you any lvl-up fodder seem remarkably easy, just to illustrate. Namtar's lair I hate because of the major difficulty spike - I can "get into" the game and feel comfortable, and the BAM there is this dungeon which expects soooo much more effort than anything I've encountered anywhere else, and I'ts not a puzzle dungeon, there's nothing to figure out. I makes me feel bad about feeling good about beating anything else in the game. It doesn't feel like "oh, thank god - a challenge", but "wait, this isn't the game I just spent hours of my time enjoying, what the hell?".
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Re: Rate the Vicious Dungeons!

Postby Lujo on Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:34 pm

The solutions to all of this are seally simple, though, as ussual. Small things go a long way :)
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Re: Rate the Vicious Dungeons!

Postby The Avatar on Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:49 pm

I agree with your point to a certain extent, but not completely. I don't think it kills the joy you had before, it elevates your joy to a new level. You get to see how you progressed, and how now you are a true master. But I do agree that Vicious dungeons seem completely out of place when you get to them. You go from a boss with 490 hp to a boss that has 1432 hp or whatever the numbers are.

I think they should change it so you can't access vicious till you've beaten the game and/or done every quest (Excluding Dark Souls and possibly Oh Horratio). That way they can ensure you're more prepared to try them, and they can warn you in the quest details before you unlock the dungeons. Like in the quest Dark Souls, the flavor text is "Prepare to die." Now that's what I call a warning. It should tell you you're up against something incredibly difficult compared to what you've already fought.
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Re: Rate the Vicious Dungeons!

Postby Lujo on Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:22 pm

Yeah, well, the possible solutions to all this in any direction aren't necesserily hard to do. But you have to agree that you aren't really the average joe concernign this game - you just one shotted Stheno at lvl 3 without killing any revenants! And then killed the Tower of Goo! It's no wonder you like Namtar's Lair :D
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Re: Rate the Vicious Dungeons!

Postby gjaustin on Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:27 pm

Unfortunately I have to generally disagree with you Lujo. The entire point of the Vicious dungeons is that they're absurdly hard. Figuring out how to beat them is what makes you an expert at the game.

That's why I said that Namtar's Lair is pretending to be a Hard dungeon. It plays exactly like any other dungeon (with slight stat boosts) and then you have to trek through the underworld. Dragon Isles is like that as well. They're the "easy" Vicious dungeons that help you master the game and discover what you were doing wrong in the Hard dungeons.

Then there's Naga City and Demonic Library that teach you how to conserve even more resources by throwing a seemingly absurd number of bosses at you. I will agree with you that the five Djinn seems a little excessive, but it's still doable with almost any class.

Then there's VHoS which is just broken. And Gaan'Telet which might be great with just a few changes.
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Re: Rate the Vicious Dungeons!

Postby Gorgon on Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:34 pm

They should remove BlahBlah from Halls of Steel. It has nothing to do with it.

And they should make The Crypt harder. I don't even consider it a Vicious dungeon... It's by far the easiest one.
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Re: Rate the Vicious Dungeons!

Postby Lujo on Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:38 pm

I don't think we disagree on wether the dungeons are supposed to be hard, or the second, unmentioned thing - they FAIL at it, that's what I find wrong with them. Once they stop being hard, everything else become pointlessly easy. This may or may not be a problem depending on the perspective.

EDIT: Except "twist" dungeons, as they sort of play with "special" rules.

I'll paraphrase you: "You become the expert at the game and figure out what you've been doing wrong". You can't have both parts of that sentence - I don't feel, or rather, I don't WANT to feel I've been doing anything wrong for most of the game when at the very end, when I have to use all I've learned and unlocked, I get to "discover" that with resources I'm given I was supposed to beat stuf that is X times more difficult. Technicaly what those dungeons did for me was not "improve" my game, but open my eyes to how stupid I was assuming that the game was supposed to be challenging in the first place. Namtar's Lair, Dragon Isles and Demonic Library make me feel stupid for assuming a boss is to be fought at lvl 7 rather then lvl 3.

Gaan'Telet and Naga City at least require me to put my knowledge of Gods to good use I haven't been able to anywhere else.

Just remember, last time I raged and harangued was when I dropped the assumption that the game progression makes any sense, unlocked a tiny fraction of available content and steamrolled everything with exactly one strat - one which ment I was using the content I did have available only for conversion points and not for options it provided. And the whole "attitude problem" stemmed from the same thing that is at work here - I was made to feel like a fool for being a nice, quiet casual guy who liked a good challenge.
Last edited by Lujo on Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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