Rate the Vicious Dungeons!

[The Avatar]

They removed the crypt a LONG time ago. It no longer exists unless you already had it.

And I don't get why people keep saying dragon isles and namtar's lair are easy. I can breeze through Naga City and Demonic Library without breaking a sweat, but these two require much more planning and specific strategy. I can get 5 wins on Dragon Isles and Namtar's Lair (I'm not counting my old Vamp runs), but I can get a win with every class in Naga City and Demonic Library (Pre Vamp Nerf).

And Lujo, don't think of it as what you've been doing wrong, think of it as what you are now doing right. It's one of those glass half full or half empty things.

[Gorgon]

I like Vicious dungeons because they make the game much more enjoyable. Sure they have their special broken strategies that everyone uses, but I think they help the devs see what's broken and what's not. If they hadn't been in the game, I don't think I'd enjoy it as much as I do.

[Lujo]

[The Avatar]

Well, I just say to myself "Cool! I never thought of that! Kudos to you, subnark!" or something to that effect.

[Lujo]

We all did

But then he did it with everything and decided it wasn't challenging to begin with himself, and felt kind of silly for flooding his market with goat horns back when old taxidermist was in play

[Lujo]

Ok, constructive observation after being so negative:

I said before that there probably are easy and rather small "fixes" to what I see as problem with some of the vicious stuff. It's basicaly the tail end of the "games easier if you don't unlock stuff problem". I think the big problem with all of the broken/content killer dungeons is the monster comopsition of the dungeons. Here's what exactly, and why:

The reason it becomes obvious that you can and should throw any advanced tactics out the window is basicaly because you're denied a chance at the game plan you've been using up to then as some of the VICIOUS dungeons give you a lot less options for strategizing. The "fat pileup" of Dragon Isles, for example, or the ridicuolus monster composition of VHoS forces you to kill bosses at levels you don't feel like you have to in other dungeons. Same thing for Demonic Library (although it's a mite easier because of imps and goats).

If the omnipresent AA's/variants were nerfed, and players not forced to fight so far above their level, they wouldn't HAVE to, or have to be able to.

That's the annyoing thing that should be fixed - if you have to play a dungeon while ignoring too many / most of the monsters, and it works, it means that you can probably use that approach everywhere, and you get to ask yourself "why the hell was I fighting monsters in the first place?". You don't become an expert that way, or rather, you don't become any better at playing the game you were playing up till then, because a key element of every dungeon, monsters, was far less relevant then you had reasons to believe all along.

I know that fighting the red djinns in the DL substitutes exp you'd normaly get from monsters, and that it's doable, but then why are those monsters there in the first place? As a red herring? Could anyone beat DL if the Red guys gave no XP? Or if the Dragonguards in Dragon Isles gave no XP?

If the devs gave the "flavour bosses" a no XP tag, and made the monster makeup of the dungeons more managable, I'd feel like I'm still playing the same game, only at a difficulty setting that requires me to be better at what I ussually do. The way it is it feels like I've been wasting time at getting good at something I don't really need.

[q 3]

I'm honestly not really comprehending your complaint, Lujo. Yes, different dungeons emphasize different strategies, some dungeons preclude certain strategies and other dungeons enable other strategies. You haven't been playing the game wrong, you've just been learning new strategies that are better in certain situations but not necessarily universally so. (The only time you're actually playing the game wrong is when you misclick and die, in which case the devs apparently think you just need better hand-eye coordination before you can master this extremely action-oriented game. /eyeroll)

For me, the vicious dungeons have tended to fall into two groups. One in which it's basically just a hard dungeon but you need gobs more resources to win (and are occasionally provided with extra resources): Naga City, Tower, the old vicious Crypt, Dragon Isles. Just about any of the strategies that you'd use in a hard dungeon can see you through these vicious dungeons, provided you max out your preparations and play efficiently.

The other kind is, I think, distinct in that they're not so much resource dependent: VHoS (pre-Blahblah, at least), Namtar, Library. You can pick a normal/hard strategy and pump it full of resources and will probably still fail, because there just aren't enough resources to beat these dungeons normally. Instead of resource-intensive play these dungeons require more strategy-intensive play. Figure out how to take out the five red djinns without burning through your potions; figure out how to strip 50 death protections; figure out how to build a character who can deal with Namtar's approach of basically hitting you with everything but the kitchen sink. There are multiple possible tricks for each of these dungeons, but once you figure one out you shouldn't have to worry nearly as much about maximizing your available resources as you do in the resource-intensive dungeons, because you're basically already 80% of the way to victory just by knowing what combination of race/class/glyph/item/god/etc. is capable of seeing you through.

I think there's merit to both approaches. Personally, I prefer the second category - in large part because they're more amenable to purist runs, where you really can't rely on having gobs of resources. (I still dislike preparations, I think in part because they feel like cheating - like one of those 'trainers' hacked onto old computer games that let you increase your lives, have infinite ammo, etc.) Once you figure out a successful strategy for Namtar/Library/(old)VHoS it's not too difficult to apply that strategy with fewer and fewer preparations; Naga City and the Tower, on the other hand, and probably the new VHoS too, are nearly unbeatable purist, and Dragon Isles is almost as bad. For me those dungeons feel less like a challenge and more like a grind.

But like I said, there's merit in both. I could list a bunch of specific complaints but I've done that enough already.

[The Avatar]

I agree, q 3. I find the strategic dungeons much more interesting. They still require optimal play, and little waste if resource, but not as much as the first category.

[Lujo]

I guess I like a good grind then

And again, I agree with the way you look at it, I just don't LIKE it. Beating VICIOUS dungeons purist, or rather, being able to beat them purist, doesn't feel gratifying to me. Why was I given resources in the first place? Why did I spend my time unlocking all the stuff when it turns out I don't need it at all? Having my own "strategizing" be 80% on the road to victory means I can pre-determine the optimal path, and, well, for lack of a better analogy, that feels way too much like masturbating compared to having sex.

It's lacks interaction with the game, or the game content - it tries to avoid as much content as it can. I didn't like my minimalit/conversion strat - I thought it was moronic and ungratifying even as I steamrolled. I was complaining about being able to do it in the first place. The VICIOUS dungeons that let you ignore resources (monster's generally) make me feel stupid in the same way that finding that strat good made me feel stupid. It punishes playing the game in an intuitive and respectfull way, and makes it clear that assuming the devs are morons, and the game is heavily unbalanced in favour of the player is the philosophy that gets you the wins.

[Ara]

1. Favorite is Naga City for the epic feel. Unforgettable memories of the first run (wow 9 altars and I have 3 bosses to defeat before the final one, fun! But I die on first wave, not knowing what really awaits). And the second run, when I discover how epic it really is (wow a 2nd wave! It's okay I managed well! OMG A 3RD WAVE!!! OMFG I beat the final boss, thinking I had to kill 4 bosses, finally surviving 10!! *Throwing flowers at myself, feeling proud and achieved, opening a bottle of fine wine*).

2. Demonic Library. It first felt disappointingly easy (picking top tier classes at first, of course). But it has a great replay value because you can finish it with nearly (well The Avatar can just say: ) all classes, with varying gameplay styles. Fun mix of monsters and mini-bosses. (By the way, Naga City has a nice replay value too).

3. Dragon Isles. This "dungeon" was my first successful vicious run: I wanted to kill an uber dragon! No small feat indeed! The mana burn effect forces most classes to scum for the Soul Orb, which is annoying. Also, all monsters there are extremely resilient. Not a funny mix.

4. Namtar's lair has a fun concept. But as I try to beat it with more classes, I realize that the first 2 forms are too strong against most classes, building frustrations (but that's probably just me, too lazy to think of a workaroud; I want to believe in devs when they say they want us to beat challenges with what we find as we explore, rather than with a pre determined strategy ).

5. Halls of Steel are harsh for most classes because there's almost only mean/vicious monsters and leveling can be quite difficult. I don't know why but unlike others I like having The Indomitable and Blablah in the same dungeon: one is best beat with many undiscovered tiles to regen fight, while the other is best beat with all tiles already revealed. Spawning The Indomitable not too far from the start could be a nice touch (making one of them deal physical damage could be nice too).

6. Gaan-Telet needs some work. It seems that the current implementation is to spot broken/too powerful classes and/or strategies. Tiles are a very scarce resource in there, so you have to use another kind of resource, and besides blood pools I don't see other options unless you achieve high resistances (with lifesteal to boot ?) and you're able to beat bandits without taking a hit.