Balance Tweaks Roundup

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Re: Balance Tweaks Roundup

Postby q 3 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:10 pm

It could very well be that I'm just no good at playing Taurog (outside of easy scenarios - and by "easy" I mean everything but the vicious dungeons, two or three of the hard dungeons, and a handful of quests and challenges ;) ). But for me, finding his altar in a difficult scenario is basically a waste of an altar; the only real exception is for a pure caster, for whom he is a so-so desecration option. His items fill up your inventory too fast, and his boons really aren't worth taking just for the meager bonus damage, considering their piety cost and the reduced max MP.

He's not a very good piety farm, either, except in the rare case where you want to immediately convert a bunch of glyphs then convert out, and have no plans to worship GG, JJ, or Mystera. Otherwise, the optimal strategy is to wait until I've converted to my preferred deity and then start killin' stuff, because that's going to get you piety with your 'real' god (TT, Dracul, and JJ all give piety for kills, GG for the piety on level-up). Binlor and Mystera are much, much better piety farms, and IMO in a vicious dungeon GG is the best counterpart to Pactmaker due to the ridiculous amounts of piety you'll eventually get from leveling up (unless you've prepped him).

Every other deity is either flexible by default (like JJ) or at least has something you can do with them apart from their speciality (like EM, who is primarily useful for her utterly broken Plantation+Clearance combo, but her other boons aren't terrible). And I do think the Taurog-worshipper is unique in being so completely inflexible: the Monk can in fact get magic resistance, and in fact his other class features (higher max res, double regen) make him very formidable once he does so; the Assassin has plenty of options even when poison isn't effective (mainly due to Swift Hands - now, if Swift Hands also didn't work against undead then you'd have a very good point), and TT has plenty of uses other than his poison boon. But worship Taurog in, say, the Slime Pit or Namtar's Lair, and it seems to me that you're deliberately crippling yourself.

I don't necessarily want Taurog to be stronger, but it would be much appreciated if something were done to make him more flexible, at least for high-end play. Otherwise we may as well put a veto slot at the church so that you can ban his altar as soon as it becomes more trouble than it's worth.
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Re: Balance Tweaks Roundup

Postby Darvin on Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:14 pm

I'm more or less with q3 on this one. Taurog isn't without use, but he's still the worst god in the game because of his crippling inflexibility, lack of ability to combo with anything except resist-stacking, and steep downsides. Every other deity has the ability to be adapted to wide variety of uses and situations. At a certain difficulty threshold, Taurog is just a piety farm and the only people who even consider his boons are resist-stackers or characters that somehow got their hands on more than one compression scroll.

As I've already said, I've long since given up trying to convince the devs to change Taurog. I can live with him as he is, but I'm not happy with him.
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Re: Balance Tweaks Roundup

Postby Lujo on Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:49 pm

I don't disagree with you guys in the assesment that he's too inflexible, but I think he's just paying the price of the game being structured the way it is. I worship him quite often for the damage resists or just the occasional skullpicker, pick him up for the +20% att if I can spare the MP (nothing meager about that in my book), like him with rogues for the piety spike and use him as a non-exploration piety farm. I even used him on non-prepped out mysterea into taurog Warlords of all things, and I use him with compression seals and Tinkers quite often. Never used him for body pact, but I hear it was all the rage, and I also use specific glyphs while worshiping him, especialy on magic user heavy maps which provide piety for him.

I don't really think he's such a waste of an altar slot, it really depends on what you're going for. But he's so vital early in the kingdom development for anyone not going the TT grind route that I think making him more flexible would equal making him more powerfull at the same time.
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Re: Balance Tweaks Roundup

Postby Darvin on Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:55 pm

and I use him with compression seals and Tinkers quite often

This is one of the few places Taurog rocks out. When you can shrink most (or all) of the items you pick up, his cost is substantially negated, and his overall strength improves dramatically.

Never used him for body pact, but I hear it was all the rage, and I also use specific glyphs while worshiping him, especialy on magic user heavy maps which provide piety for him.

Taurog is lenient enough that you can spellcast fairly regularly so long as you're killing regularly. I can't believe you've never used Taurog with body pact. Resist items plus direct conversion of piety to resistance? It's ground zero for resist-stacking.

But he's so vital early in the kingdom development for anyone not going the TT grind route that I think making him more flexible would equal making him more powerfull at the same time.

GG also works well early as a powerhouse. Now that TT is gated by Earthmother, he's not so hot for strategic unlock anymore.
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Re: Balance Tweaks Roundup

Postby Lujo on Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:06 am

True about GG but he's nowhere nearly so single-mindedly easy to handle. Dev's have stated time and time again they want the newbies to go west first, and for good reasons :D

Also, yeah, I never used Taurog with body pact, it's strange. Essentially, since Body pact costs as much as I gain from a kill, I somehow always feel too paranoid about locking myself into a steady downward spiral. If I'm going for resists, I'm not sticking in Taurog since it's suboptimal (to changing to say Drac), so I need that piety to convert out, and if I'm going for the DP spike, I don't really need the resists so much but I do need the piety. I gues it's a psychological thing or something.

Can you still take the consensus if you pick up a pact first? Because if true I might break the stupid habit and develop a new, stupider one.
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Re: Balance Tweaks Roundup

Postby Darvin on Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:34 am

If I'm going for resists, I'm not sticking in Taurog since it's suboptimal (to changing to say Drac)

Sometimes there aren't better options on the field, and sometimes you're a Paladin with a choice between Taurog and Binlor with Pactmaker as your third. Either way, I'm using someone to fuel body pact.

Can you still take the consensus if you pick up a pact first? Because if true I might break the stupid habit and develop a new, stupider one.

No, you have to pick consensus before you pick your pact. It's a very workable option if you find Pactmaker first, since it only really disqualifies JJ and maybe GG.
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Re: Balance Tweaks Roundup

Postby dislekcia on Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:09 pm

TigerKnee wrote:dislekcia: I'm curious but do you consider "pick the suitable class for the dungeon" to be part of the "optimal decision making" process and not a playstyle choice? Just asking because DD's use of RPG tropes makes it hard to disconnect it from RPGs, and generally "class choice" is generally intended to be flavor/playstyle rather than power level.


It's a continuum. Players will always have their favorites, sometimes those change as their skills improve. The trick from our side is to offer enough challenge for someone who only plays one class, while still putting pressure on them to expand their understanding of the game by incentivising other classes and races. The fact that people can't agree on which class is the overall strongest seems to point out that we're in the right sort of space there.

Just as an aside: Taurog is the most worshipped god at the moment, over 14000 times in the 126000 runs I just analysed. Most preppred god too, more than extra altar!
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Re: Balance Tweaks Roundup

Postby Darvin on Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:48 pm

Most preppred god too, more than extra altar!

Well, on the subject of preparation Taurog has arguably the least painful downside and he's a shoe-in for any run in which you're going for a warmonger badge. This makes him a very common altar preparation even for me, even though I virtually never worship him if I find him randomly in-dungeon. Disregarding his general popularity amongst beginner players, I'd still expect him to be disproportionately prepared relative to other gods.

Extra altar, on the other hand, is quite an expensive preparation so it's not something you typically use until the end-game. I rarely touch it until I hit the nastier quests (like complicated task 6), and certainly not while Horatio is damaging my economy (although frankly as a veteran I barely feel this since quest completion rewards make up the bulk of my income at that stage, not trophies)

Also, I'd be very interested to see some miscellaneous statistics you've been gathering, if you'd care to share.
Last edited by Darvin on Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Balance Tweaks Roundup

Postby TigerKnee on Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:27 pm

Aye, I agree Taurog's not the most prepared because he's OP or anything.

It's because Gods like TT and JJ's altar prep cost are still super huge.

I think Earthmother and GG are the only ones I might consider taking.

Binlor probably used to take Taurog's place as most prepared altar, but his changes really toned him down (funny thing is, with Pisorf instead of EndIsWal, Binlor's prep penalty actually becomes an issue now. Okay, maybe not funny, just intentional)
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Re: Balance Tweaks Roundup

Postby The Avatar on Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:40 pm

Here's an interesting idea. What if you took away the % bonus from each weapon and made unstoppable fury a one time super boon. Something like permanent might, one DP, and maybe some knockback.
JakshdfFiha$#jaigb532i97fbnPKASN*@)sdjbau9a0)f+,Ahghs*hr)sk_sabdh^ujsbUA3{mvio/~dgffdsT^klndf,#ikon%(d

I speak chaos.
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