Snake? Snaaaaaake!

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Re: Snake? Snaaaaaake!

Postby dislekcia on Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:36 pm

Kuranes wrote:I have a question (although hardly related this update). How far west do you have to go to unlock paladin silver? I have completed both the Berserker Camp and Halls of Steel (hard).


West would be in the other direction ;)
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Re: Snake? Snaaaaaake!

Postby booooooze on Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:36 pm

Yet another person here unable to play. Someday...
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Re: Snake? Snaaaaaake!

Postby Dischorran on Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:28 am

dislekcia wrote:That usually means that the download messed up somehow. Try clearing your cache maybe?
That fixed it.

I like the new boosters!
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Re: Snake? Snaaaaaake!

Postby Kuranes on Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:22 am

dislekcia wrote:
Kuranes wrote:I have a question (although hardly related this update). How far west do you have to go to unlock paladin silver? I have completed both the Berserker Camp and Halls of Steel (hard).


West would be in the other direction ;)


Ahh, thank you. I guess I just assumed it were East I had to go since the church tasks lead there.
"Which farm animal is featured prominently in Desktop Dungeons?" "Snakes"
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Re: Snake? Snaaaaaake!

Postby Sidestepper on Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:21 pm

I'm having a hard time finding niches for the Mage Fist to fill.

Let's take a completely generic Guard character with no powerups or items other than the Mage Fist and a 12 point mana pool. For use of discussion, let's say he's 5th level and is facing an equal level monster from which he can soak two hits safely.

With the Mage Fist, he can cast two fireballs, inflicting 40x2=80 damage total, leaving his health and mana resources completely tapped. (I'm ignoring burn damage here).

Without the Mage Fist, he can strike twice, inflicting 25x2=40 damage, plus he can cast two fireballs, adding in another 20X2=40, for a grand total of 80 damage.

So that's a tie, except that you lose the flexibility normally offered by Fireball and you had to use your locker slot to do it. Worse, if you have made any improvements to your attack strength or number of fireballs, either through class abilities, powerups, boons, or items, then the Mage Fist actually reduces your overall damage.

What about resistances? Let's take our 5th level Guard and grant him 50% resistances. How does that work?
With Mage Fist:
2 Fireballs for 40x2= 80 damage
2 Attacks for 25x2 = 50 damage
130 damage total

Without Mage Fist:
2 Fireballs for 20x2= 40 damage
4 Attacks for 25x4= 100 damage
140 damage total

So resistances also hurt the Mage Fist. That makes sense, since anything that improves your melee efficiency is going work counter to the Mage Fist. So is there any way to use this thing at all?

Well, as others have pointed out, you can combo it with slow effects to front load an extra fireball's worth of damage. To pull this off, you need three components (Mage Fist + Fireball + WEYTWUT/Earthmother). It's okay, and stacks with other free hit effects like first strike, dodge, and death protection, but I'm not sure that I'm sold on it.

What about low damage characters? Can they make more general use of it? Let's send in a 5th level Monk against the same nameless monster that we've been throwing our Guard at.
With Mage Fist
2 Fireballs for 40x2 = 80 damage
2 Attacks for 15x2 = 30 damage
110 damage total

Without Mage Fist
2 Fireballs for 20x2 = 40 damage
4 Attacks for 15x4 = 60 damage
100 total damage

We get a marginal improvement as long as we don't do anything that improves our attack strength or resistances. Color me unimpressed.

What about Wizards?
With Mage Fist
2 Fireballs for 40x2 = 80 damage
80 damage total

Without Mage Fist
2 Fireballs for 20x2 = 40 damage
2 Attacks for 18x2 = 36 damage
76 damage total

Bleh.
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Re: Snake? Snaaaaaake!

Postby The Avatar on Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:59 pm

Hmm... What about an elf monk with Mage fist?
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Re: Snake? Snaaaaaake!

Postby Nurator on Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:10 pm

with any monk, using +18% resistances is way better as the mage fist... i am a bit disappointed too.

Maybe if you remove the mana consumption (i mean, you will get dmg all the time, why do you need both ressources), it would be of some worth.
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Re: Snake? Snaaaaaake!

Postby Sidestepper on Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:25 pm

The Avatar wrote:Hmm... What about an elf monk with Mage fist?


Not even then. Let's take a Monk with 18 mana
Mage Fist
3 Fireballs 40x3 = 120
1 Attack 15x1= 15
135 Total

No Mage Fist
3 Fireballs 20x3 = 60
4 Attacks 15x4 = 60
120 Total

That's a very marginal gain that will get smaller and smaller as you gain attack boosts. Plus you lose the ability to get unreciprocated spell attacks, which is a pretty big loss. Right now, I'd say that taking nothing is very competitive with prepping the Mage Fist.
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Re: Snake? Snaaaaaake!

Postby Nurator on Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:06 pm

Hmm what about Vicious Halls of Steel? It is now the only Vicious Dungeon without a reward :( Why is that?
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Re: Snake? Snaaaaaake!

Postby The Avatar on Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:08 pm

It is a vicious version of a hard dungeon. I think it should be taken out...


It seems "Mage Fist" isn't very good at all. I think we should buff it and the Avatar's Symbol. Both of the other Vicious rewards are good, so why not this one?
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