Snake? Snaaaaaake!

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Re: Snake? Snaaaaaake!

Postby sitnaltax on Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:31 pm

I enjoyed VHoS a lot and would be sorry to see it go.

With most of the game balancing already done for release, I think it makes a lot more sense to add an item that might be lackluster than one that might be gamebreaking. It can eventually be tweaked if necessary, or combo with some game mechanism that exists only in a future version.
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Re: Snake? Snaaaaaake!

Postby Fran on Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:47 pm

Why does mystera, flames and mystic balance never enter the equation and why do we look at general characters when its about fitting a niche? Isnt that contradicting itself?
I'd bet an elf monk with mystera and everything devoted to fireballs can be quite powerful.
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Re: Snake? Snaaaaaake!

Postby The Avatar on Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:53 pm

The problem is it also weakens your mana potions by limiting them to your health potions, and the monk mana regen is normal, so it's not great. An orc with extra attack boosters always wins.

What if the penalty was +2 to the cost? What if all monsters got 33% magic res? That is net more damage for you, but it makes other spells harder to use.
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Re: Snake? Snaaaaaake!

Postby Sidestepper on Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:50 pm

Fireball boosters aid both Mage Fist and non-Mage Fist equally. In cases of high mana users, things like the Battlemage Ring will help the non-Mage Fist user more, because they aren't limited by their health. The reason I used generic characters is because Mage Fist is strongest when you have little to no advantages with regards to attack, mana, or resistances. High numbers (and by high, I mean greater than baseline) in any of these categories disfavors Mage Fist.

If you have the Mage Fist and Battlemage Ring AND the ability to soak 4 hits AND 24 mana, it still doesn't really do much:

Elf Monk Mage Fist with Battlemage Ring
4 Fireballs 45x4 =180

Elf Monk non-Mage Fist with Battlemage Ring
4 Fireballs 25x4 = 100
4 Attacks 15x4 = 60
Total = 160

The gain is tiny compared to the sacrifices made, and all the non-Mage Fist user has to do to catch up is pick a Fine Sword.
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Re: Snake? Snaaaaaake!

Postby The Avatar on Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:17 am

What if it made all glyphs cost 2 more? Would that be too good? Too bad?
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Re: Snake? Snaaaaaake!

Postby Nandrew on Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:27 am

Will take a look at the precise ideas surrounding Mage Fist. Also have to test summin', but I think there may be a slight problem with the WEYTWUT/Slow theory ... just realised that while those are indeed useful for nullifying the Retaliate effect, that's an effect on the monster. Mage Fist, on the other hand, is an on-player effect and thus may not be affected. I think that's something which I'd change.

Agreed, it seems that the Fist is underwhelming right now for reasons already described (we're also kinda getting to the point where we present average items and wait for them to be broken somehow :P). Could probably see about some sort of revision buff this week.

Although ... how many of you have personally grabbed the Fist and played with it? Don't want to tip my hand just yet, but there's one little odd thing about this discussion which makes me wonder if I made a coding error ...
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Re: Snake? Snaaaaaake!

Postby Sidestepper on Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:33 am

I''ve done limited field testing. I haven't noticed anything weird yet. Your fireball still goes first, and then comes the retaliation, assuming the monster survives. The monster's counterstroke still carries any associated debuffs.

Is there something else we should be testing?

EDIT: Ah yes, the slow theory, of course. I just tested that, and the combo doesn't work. Slowed monsters still get a counterstroke when using Mage Fist.
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Re: Snake? Snaaaaaake!

Postby The Avatar on Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:35 pm

I have tested it, and it wasn't very good. My elf monk had to use potions on Count BlahBlah.
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Re: Snake? Snaaaaaake!

Postby TigerKnee on Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:05 pm

The Avatar wrote:What if the penalty was +2 to the cost?


You would have to give me Berserker level advantages for an item that gives +2 cost to my glyph use.

I guess you could technically convert such an item if necessary but I don't quite think anyone wants to pay 100 gold each time to reclaim the item then.

Edit: Oh wait, do you mean Fireball cost +2 only? In that case... it sort of becomes a simple math trade off item, doesn't it?
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Re: Snake? Snaaaaaake!

Postby The Avatar on Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:11 pm

Yes, and it all depends on whether you think you'll hit the threshold or not. Personally, I like the idea of giving monsters 33% magic res more.
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