The Deities ; Thoughts on the Final Roster

[q 3]

Or require Binlor to be unlocked first.

A more serious suggestion: what if there were a (small) item that let you access your deity's altar from anywhere? Being able to repeat Unstoppable Fury in a vicious subdungeon might make Taurog more versatile later on, without compromising any of the current early- to mid-game.

[Lujo]

I assume you mean because of the fact you get Taurog so early? I suppose there is a quick fix to that. Make it so his subdungeon only appears when you play as a berserker. That will at least force a few more normal runs, and it will pair Taurog with the class he is actually good with.

Well, I actually mean that the game added a lot more power to the player through the prep system than it added challenge to the dungeons. In order to challenge a player the dungeons get progressively more insane, but we're handed out so many goodies that with expirience we overcome most of it.

Even though it takes some seriously imbalanced crap to do some of the challenges.

But, the very beggining of the game and the late game are very, very different in what you're supposed to assume, be able to do or prep. You start out with none of the benefits of the beta (or advanced classes), and in serious problems unless you unlock Taurog rather fast. The inital monster roster includes stuff that either stayes strong throughout (zombies, goblins), or only becomes popcorn to a degree with unlocks and expirience (meatmen, for example).

Just compare the powerleveling ease (and must) of a VICIOUS playing vet with what a newbie can do at all in the begging. You can rather easily unlock the 2 boss dungeons way before you're ready for them item/prep/class/glyph pool wise.

Technicaly the game sort of has 4 stages - 1) godawfuly difficult beggining 2) ppost Taurog much more option firendly begginging 3) Once I grab Tinker I just go around picking stuff up and not bothering with quests or progression before I swipe all the tools 4) once I pick up all the broken stuff and throw all preconceptions out the window and devastate.

The class quests changed this a bit, but the difference between early and late gamelay is still rather big.

[Darvin]

Being able to repeat Unstoppable Fury in a vicious subdungeon might make Taurog more versatile later on, without compromising any of the current early- to mid-game.

The biggest problem with UF in vicious is staying power; the accumulating cost of this boon means it won't get you through all the "fat" of a vicious dungeon. Besides, the only vicious dungeon that cuts you off from your altar is Namtar's Lair, and you'd probably want to use UF against form 1 or 2 anyways.

The second issue is that the mana loss of all four items often isn't worth it in vicious anyways, and you're better off converting out rather than taking them all, even with the prize of unstoppable fury.


EDIT: I had a worst-case scenario for 4-altar today, and after considering how many options I still had in spite of it, I'm convinced 4-altar is the way to go. I found Pactmaker early, then didn't find any other altars until I'd already killed one of the bosses. Second altar was Earthmother which I passed over and continued to slay bosses. Then I spotted the white sparkles of Glowing Guardian, but I was already level 7 so I was well out of his sweet spot. Finally, the last altar I found just as exploration completed was... Binlor. I analyzed my religious options and decided I would worship Earthmother, use plantation and clearance a few times then convert to GG and desecrate EM and Binlor and use consensus to fuel protection spam. I never needed to do this; my Gnome Warlord won with potions to spare and I got a faithless badge.

I'll also add that the vicious dungeons feel quite balanced now. I've ran Gnome Warlord with the same preps (Trisword, Black Market, 4 altar (GG on Naga City), attack boost, perseverance badge, apothecaries, compression seal, and strength/reflex/quicksilver potions) on the four directional vicious dungeons and got 100% win ratio on all of them with about the same level of difficulty. If a veteran player can consistently win them with good preparations and a top-tier race/class combo, they're probably about right.

[The Avatar]

Hmm... The beginning of the game might be a bit too tough. We've seen reports of not being able to beat normal dungeons. I wonder if there's a temporary newbie-crutch like thing. Or maybe after you've lost (retire or die) for the fifth time you get a puzzle pack to teach basic concepts. The starter pack is okay, but it doesn't cover more advanced strategy (regen fighting, mid-fight level ups, etc).

[Lujo]

There isn't enough content in the beggining to base advanced strats ON. And there IS a huge newbie crutch, it's called Taurog. It's also a massive one. And yes, the very beggining is rather rough to the average (and even above average) homo sapiens, especially so if he doesn't have a clue what ot beeline for.

Codex might actually help with some of this, depending on how exactly it works.

[The Avatar]

I was taking Taurog out of the picture, because the only reason that I think justifies him in his current form is the fact that he's practically a necessary crutch for players who've never played DD and aren't a natural at this game.

[Lujo]

Well in that case, yes, there is no real help. It also desn't help that you can't really kill to high above your level unless you know what classes to unlock for Goats and Gorgons. This lands you in the "short on popcorn" territory so you can't really discover te strat early, and so on and so forth...

We'll this was interesting: http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/ba ... -for-skill

We really ought to make a thread on "what the foo strats are". Taurog is obviously one, TT's Poison used to be a stronger one back when it was available, the potions are a mid game one, and the late game sort of quietly depend on certain stuff like Drac and the potions as well.

[Minaro]

Well, one of my obvious foo strategies is obviously always carrying a burn salve with me into dungeons. It can always come in handy, and is a free desecration with no drawbacks if you find EM. I think god punishments should get an overhaul overall - some are so nasty that you would *never* even consider desecrating them short of a last ditch effort (getting a blood swell from Dracul, Potions from TT etc), while others are so moot that you it's laughable. I think god punishments should always be very much noticeable, but not enough to, on it's own, cripple your entire run.

Other "easy" punishments to handle in the right circumstances are obviously Binlor - if you have no resistances - Mystera - if you're about to get Chaos Avatar from Jehora - and Dracul - if you've already obtained very large amounts of health somewhere else. All the others are all very major.
Heck, unless you've planned way ahead (picking up nothing you *need* later on) aswell as having only stuff you can consider Converting, you would never even consider Desecrating GGs altar. TT is also another one you wouldn't even consider unless you're on a last ditch effort, seeing how majorily it cripples any character, especially if you were worshopping him prior to it. Taurog is a no-brainer - no one wants to lose 40% attack bonus, that's equivelant to more than all the original attack bonus tokens you find in a dungeon or converting 4 glyphs to a human. Also a no-brainer to avoid unless you're on a last ditch stretch, as it cripples all future battles heavily (even more earlier in the game where you have fewer attack bonus sources to begin with). Jehora.. Well, first of all, the one time I did desecrate Jehora's altar I noticed that it does far more than just reduce your HP and MP to 1 like the Wiki says, I'm fairly sure it also affects some permanent values. Then again, it's a gamble that suits Jehora, but the severity of it might still be slightly out of line.

While writing this, I also came to think of an interesting scenario - What would happen if you have one or more pieces of Taurogs equipment on you when you desecrate GG? Would you be hit by Taurogs punishment ASWELL for losing his equipment?

[Darvin]

Well, one of my obvious foo strategies is obviously always carrying a burn salve with me into dungeons. It can always come in handy, and is a free desecration with no drawbacks if you find EM.

Arguable; this one works very well for everyone and most importantly isn't really mutually exclusive with any approach. Whether you end up with Jehora Jeheyu, desecrating Earthmother, or just needing fodder for an Alchemist Scroll or Trisword, that simple burn cure potion works wonders.

some are so nasty that you would *never* even consider desecrating them short of a last ditch effort (getting a blood swell from Dracul, Potions from TT etc)

Agreed, though we are well past that point. Binlor and Earthmother are too easy, Dracul is about right, Taurog and Mystera are a little too hard, and Jehora/Tikki Tooki/Glowing Guardian are just way too hard.

In the past few months, EM/Binlor/Dracul have made up all but one of my altar desecrations.

Mystera - if you're about to get Chaos Avatar from Jehora

That one actually doesn't come up as much as you might think, since Jehora is no longer a go-to deity, but definitely worth keeping in mind.

What would happen if you have one or more pieces of Taurogs equipment on you when you desecrate GG? Would you be hit by Taurogs punishment ASWELL for losing his equipment?

No, because GG taking away your items does not count as converting them. It will, however, disqualify you from unstoppable fury.

[Lujo]

(Moved to another thread, had little to do with deaities, really)