Now i know what vicious means

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Re: Now i know what vicious means

Postby Lujo on Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:09 am

Yep, must be The Hack, then. Not entirely foolproof, or at least used to not be, but pretty mandatory. It is quite doable in other ways as you've said. And it's not the only boon from that particular deity that I used to rely on there.

EDIT: Come to think of it, that dungeon really opened my eyes concerning the other boon back when you had to think about dealing with Bleaty and Thomity.

And Namtar's Lair was always my least favourite one, I always considered if excessive. Quite possibly due to my preffered playstyles though, it really throws a curveball (pun intended) at some of the obvious roflstomp strats.

Say, while were on the subject, as far as I recall some of the vicious dungeons have no proper subdungeon, or have had no (Dragon Isles, Naga City as far as I recall). That alone made them quite a bit more difficult than regular levels, whas this ever changed or not?
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Re: Now i know what vicious means

Postby Dreamdancer on Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:28 pm

How do you rate the difficulty of the vicious dungeons?
From the forum it got the impression that Demonic Library seems to be the easiest and Gaan Telet to be the hardest.

But before my next try of DL i first upgrade my bank and will enter it with preps... and pray
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Re: Now i know what vicious means

Postby Nurator on Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:39 pm

I started with Vicious Halls of Steel, that one has an ok difficulty for heroic.. but my first finish was Dragon Isles :D No idea, why^^
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Re: Now i know what vicious means

Postby Lujo on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:03 pm

Gaan'Telet's it's own category. If you manage it on your own, do post about it. It used to be rather doable before they changed it completely, now I have no clue what to do with it (except scumming for a GG Rogue and then something something). Used to be my playground :( Now it's DD meets Kaizo Mario.

I'd say Naga City's the easiest as it falls more into puzzle than dungeon territory. This was my opinion before they apparently nerfed it, so it's possibly even easier.

I'm not sure about the others as they've changed since the last time I played them.

Dragon Isles used to be easy for me, except only a few classes could really do them. It was more stupid than challenging, the way it used to work, and maybe still does, with all the fat monsters in the game in one place and very little exploration.

Namtar's lair gets the rep for being rather easy on the forums, but I hated it. Playstyle and strat prefference thing I guess.

I'm not sure what' the current DL is like, it used to be the easiest, then it was insane, then it got nerfed a bit. Avatar used to make a mockery of it, but then again he's Avatar.

VHOS - was supremely difficult for a while for some reason I can't remember right now. I know I didn't even unlock the vampire on my last playthrough. Not sure where it stands now, some people say it's easy. Not sure why.
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Re: Now i know what vicious means

Postby The Avatar on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:28 pm

I don't remember VHoS being so hard. Maybe we were all so focused on CYDSTEPP it just seemed hard.

EDIT: DP used to not decrease damage.
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I speak chaos.
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Re: Now i know what vicious means

Postby Lujo on Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:29 pm

The Avatar wrote:I don't remember VHoS being so hard. Maybe we were all so focused on CYDSTEPP it just seemed hard.

EDIT: DP used to not decrease damage.


I remembered - I used to trample it with Monk, Paladin, Sorcerer and Wizard, but then the Monk and the Thief got nerfed (and rightly so), and the AA's turned do magic damage. And vampires also did magic damage if I remember correctly.

And since AA's were the only real lvling fodder (apart from maybe one more thing) for res stackers, it turned ugly overnight.
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Re: Now i know what vicious means

Postby Darvin on Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:57 pm

That being said my favorite approach on that map is Glowing Guardian followed up with extreme Absolution + Enlightenment.

Also a great option... to be followed up by converting into [redacted] and using [redacted] to grab [redacted] and then convert out to someone else (possibly Dracul)

Not entirely foolproof, or at least used to not be, but pretty mandatory.

It's not mandatory, just really, really helpful.

it really throws a curveball (pun intended) at some of the obvious roflstomp strats.

Which is surprising since of all the vicious scenarios it's the most similar to a standard dungeon (just ramped up a few notches). For the most part anyone who gets past form 1 and form 2 has it made, and that's basically just a two-boss scenario taken to extreme proportions.

That's not to say form 1 and 2 are easy. There's pretty well no such thing as popcorn in Namtar's Lair and this is a dangerous boss with debuffs and enough damage to 1HKO weaker heroes... and due to the trouble leveling up, you are a weaker hero.


Personally VHoS is my most hated vicious scenario... I remember when the 50-layer Indomitable was considered the boss of a hard difficulty dungeon @_@
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Re: Now i know what vicious means

Postby Lujo on Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:27 pm

Darvin wrote:
it really throws a curveball (pun intended) at some of the obvious roflstomp strats.

Which is surprising since of all the vicious scenarios it's the most similar to a standard dungeon (just ramped up a few notches). For the most part anyone who gets past form 1 and form 2 has it made, and that's basically just a two-boss scenario taken to extreme proportions.

That's not to say form 1 and 2 are easy. There's pretty well no such thing as popcorn in Namtar's Lair and this is a dangerous boss with debuffs and enough damage to 1HKO weaker heroes... and due to the trouble leveling up, you are a weaker hero.


Which actually ties rather well into the "early game is rather harsh" conundrum from the Deities thread. What happens in Namtar's lair is that just boosting the regular challenge setup, coupled with the cramped layout which cuts you off from easy blackspace, annuls much of the unlocked stuff that speeds people through the midgame and all of a sudden you're back at the now "adjusted for unlocks and cheeze" beggining and likely in deep sh**t - because newbie crutches don't really work here, and there is nothing specific to that dungeon to figure out.

The "story" of it is my personal favourite, it's epic as hell, but my biggest aesthetical gripe with it particularly is that it showcases the whole "the game is only doable for regular people if they're given crutches (like Taurog, or The Hack, or Drac) problem. You can really feel good about yourself and your achievements and then walk into the Lair and get your ass handed to you by... Nothing in particular. And if you can beat it, why did you think anything up to then was challenging?

But we've been over this before, and I guess I can live with it. Can't bring myself to like it, but the awesome and epic story of the fight against Namtar is charming enough.

Darvin wrote: VHoS is my most hated vicious scenario... I remember when the 50-layer Indomitable was considered the boss of a hard difficulty dungeon @_@


Yeah but back then you could res stack and bear mace your way through it. Allthough I see your point.
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Re: Now i know what vicious means

Postby Darvin on Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:33 pm

Yeah but back then you could res stack and bear mace your way through it. Allthough I see your point.

Dragonshield didn't exist back then, and this was back in the era of permanent resist-down monsters, and the Monk had limited physical item slots so his equipment options were highly limited.
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Re: Now i know what vicious means

Postby Lujo on Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:12 pm

Darvin wrote:
Yeah but back then you could res stack and bear mace your way through it. Allthough I see your point.

Dragonshield didn't exist back then, and this was back in the era of permanent resist-down monsters, and the Monk had limited physical item slots so his equipment options were highly limited.


it's weird because i remember the old HARD indomitable but don't remember him being a problem. Or VHoS being a problem before the AA change, because of playstyle preference.
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