Idea for a less random Dodge mechanic?

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Idea for a less random Dodge mechanic?

Postby GG Crono on Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:11 pm

Someone in another thread said that they didn't really like the Dodge mechanic in DD, as the randomity of it doesn't quite jibe in a game where meticulous strategizing wins the day. Said poster may have been on to something.

I had an idea for a possible alternative to the current dodge system. It may be a bad idea, but I figure I have nothing to lose by sharing it.

What if after taking X hits (Five? Ten?), the next attack against you is guaranteed to whiff?
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Re: Idea for a less random Dodge mechanic?

Postby Zaratustra on Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:15 pm

Supposing you dodge every 5th hit:
Keep around a monster with high resistance to attacks and low attack (like meat man or goo blob).
Hit monster 4 times.
Hit boss, dodge.
Hit monster 4 times.
Hit boss, dodge.
Hit monster 4 times.
Hit boss, dodge.
Win.
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Re: Idea for a less random Dodge mechanic?

Postby PeaceChaser on Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:27 pm

@GG Crono: Interesting point.
@Zaratustra: Interesting counterpoint.

I don't mind the randomness whatsoever. Just my opinion. The maps are random anyway, what's wrong with a random battle mechanic? It's low enough it can't be relied on for sure.
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Re: Idea for a less random Dodge mechanic?

Postby q 3 on Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:43 pm

Tikki Tooki's dodge potions work somewhat similarly (chance to evade increases by %10 each time you get hit, then resets to normal once you finally dodge). If Tikki Tooki's piety gain were working properly for me I'd see if you could pull off that strategy, but right now he seems to be arbitrarily withholding piety from me.

PeaceChaser wrote:I don't mind the randomness whatsoever. Just my opinion. The maps are random anyway, what's wrong with a random battle mechanic? It's low enough it can't be relied on for sure.


I think the problem is, if you can't rely on it then you're ignoring it and won't benefit even if it does activate. When picking which enemy to take on, you need to calculate whether you'll actually be able to kill it or not, else you find that you have to give up midway through the fight and whatever resources you spent on the battle are wasted. So if you pick an enemy that you could kill even without dodging, and you end up dodging, it didn't help you much (maybe it saved a few tiles of regeneration, or maybe it didn't save you anything if you level up from the fight). On the other hand, if you pick an enemy that you can only kill if you dodge, and you don't get any dodges, you either risk dying or you give up and accept the loss of resources.

There is a lot of randomness to the game, but the randomness usually ends when you initiate combat, which is very predictable (the only other major exceptions being blinking and cowardly enemies).
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Re: Idea for a less random Dodge mechanic?

Postby platypotamus on Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:17 pm

Zaratustra wrote:Supposing you dodge every 5th hit:
Keep around a monster with high resistance to attacks and low attack (like meat man or goo blob).
Hit monster 4 times.
Hit boss, dodge.
Hit monster 4 times.
Hit boss, dodge.
Hit monster 4 times.
Hit boss, dodge.
Win.


Having a viable strategy to build around a class attribute isn't a downside to that attribute, it's an upside! This is exactly the problem I and others have with dodge as is, you can't build a strategy around it.

Besides, having meatmen/blobs of high enough level to survive 4 of your hits means they probably do enough damage in those 4 hits to be equivalent to the boss hit(s) you would have taken (with some boss exceptions) anyway. You're also giving up the xp from having killed them earlier, which again, if they're high enough level to be useful for this in the boss fight, maybe means you're down a level on the boss.

I think Crono's suggestion is a pretty solid one. Heck, even without making it X number of times before your next dodge, but just having knowledge of when your next dodge will come (in combat prediction, or as a buff on your portrait, or both) would improve dodge for me.
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Re: Idea for a less random Dodge mechanic?

Postby pakoito on Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:20 pm

Zaratustra wrote:Supposing you dodge every 5th hit:
Keep around a monster with high resistance to attacks and low attack (like meat man or goo blob).
Hit monster 4 times.
Hit boss, dodge.
Hit monster 4 times.
Hit boss, dodge.
Hit monster 4 times.
Hit boss, dodge.
Win.
Viable Strat
/like
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Re: Idea for a less random Dodge mechanic?

Postby FDru on Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:26 pm

pakoito wrote:Viable Strat
/like


That's what I was thinking.

Though, I think dodge is fine as it is. I just feel it's pretty useless on anyone except a Rogue. But dwarf rogues w/Tikki Tooki are really nice.
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Re: Idea for a less random Dodge mechanic?

Postby zeemeerman2 on Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:34 pm

Why dwarf rogues exactly? What do you need about health conversion if you can rely on dodge instead?
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Re: Idea for a less random Dodge mechanic?

Postby FDru on Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:51 pm

Pitifully low health is the rogue's shortcoming, dwarves make up for that since 5 conversions and you've nullified the health penalty already. Taking dwarf allows you to kill much higher level enemies than you'd normally be able to, to level faster (so more lower level enemies to kill).

You could always just go after things you can kill in one shot, though. So humans are good too, but getting an extra hit in is better than the extra attack bonus, IMO, especially since it seems that Tikki doesn't care if you only get hit once by an enemy.

About the dodge, if you can't survive a single hit then the dodge gamble isn't really worth taking in the first place.
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Re: Idea for a less random Dodge mechanic?

Postby q 3 on Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:57 pm

IMO Orcs are by far the best Rogues at the moment due to the brokenness of their stacking base damage, although Elves and Gnomes are pretty good, too (soften the enemy up with fireballs then take them out in a single blow).

Anyway, I think "X number of attacks" then a guaranteed dodge is too easy to game once you add things like shields and Sanctify to the mix (I can even see using the Weakening malus to reduce yourself to single digit damage and then whittling away at the boss while also poking at a Meat Man who does virtually no damage in return), but there are other triggers that could be used to activate a dodge. Maybe "take a blow that reduces you to less than 50% health" will cause you to dodge the next blow (but it won't activate if you get hit while already below 50% health - you won't get another dodge until you've healed up first and taken another hit). That would even make for more narrative sense - call it "Adrenaline" or somesuch.
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