Namtar's Lair and Naga City

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Re: Namtar's Lair and Naga City

Postby Sidestepper on Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:24 am

Now that you've got the basics, experiment with simple variants. Dragon Shield is strictly better than DG in this case, because it stacks multiplicatively with the health and resistances from Glowing Guardian. Patches is like a DIY Thief Kit and has flat superiority to Black Market if you can stand the consequences (definitely convert the bear before going into the arena). HALPMEH is probably better than Fireball but is a bit harder to start with (I would start with Fireball and milk the burnt offering bonus, and switch to HALPMEH later). The classic CYDSTEP Rogue doesn't work as well here, because that strategy works by exploiting the Rogue's low health, and we are making a Rogue with more health than a Dwarven Priest.

From there, you should try Blovski's "Healthmonster" Dwarven Paladin strategy. It's also a monotheistic GG strategy that uses the Fireheart to leverage your health. It's a bit trickier to pull off, but it's cool to see a health build actually work in a VICIOUS setting.
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Re: Namtar's Lair and Naga City

Postby Blovski on Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:19 pm

Another easy one (tested today) is to start with the Taurogzerker and then switch to Glowing Guardian underground.
I went for Orc, Dragon Shield, Patches, Fewer Glyphs, Transloc, fancy potions and Taurog. In retrospect, Compression is probably the better seal and Viper Ward would be my item of choice if I didn't have Dragon Shield.

Basically play the overground as your regular Taurogzerker, convert all glyphs if you like, though if you're not as confident or fussed about badges then keep one of Halpme, Lemissi or Getindare if you find it. Pray for Taurog's items, pick up the sword but don't rush for the others unless you're already done with buying stuff up and converting it. Grab a death protection. Anyway, don't worry if you can't clear the overground without chugging potions or taking corrosion, get near to a level-up and then head downstairs. You'll probably have around 100 damage or more, a goodish number of hit points and 65% MR and 15-30% PR.

Downstairs regen fight to take out a wussy boss like Aequitas or flatten Tomithy or someone like that with reflex, Quicksilver and strength potions (Curse is not good, clear it immediately with popcorn). After you've knocked out one you can unlock Golden Guardian, convert and use Cleansing and Whupaz to flatten Goo, you can probably just regen fight TS and if you finish a wave poisoned Cleansing can clear that. Most bosses you can regen fight to death happily. Feel free to convert Taurog's Helm, as an orc it's not a big net loss in attack power in exchange for the extra bead-space or using Yendor or something. I recommend the pact that gives you overheal on level up, since you'll get a couple anyway and you can Yendor for another. Throw in protections and/or healing potions (desecrate Earthmother for piety and indulgences if you have to) and you should win comfortably. Alternatively you could play it like the old-school Naga City and do a consensus-swap to Dracul for blood swells once the poisoners and physical resistance enemies are down.

My favourite sneaky combo synergy trick in this is that once you hit level 10 as a berserker you lose your +20% attack bonus vs higher level enemies BUT with Golden Guardian you can use humility to drop back to level 9 and keep it against the bosses. Which is the only specific use for high-level humility I've found yet.

I got Warmonger and Feeling Parched with ten or fifteen tiles to spare and no conversion into Drac, if you keep a glyph or use indulgence-based healing potions there's a huge margin for error here.

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Re: Namtar's Lair and Naga City

Postby Darvin on Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:38 pm

I went for Orc, Dragon Shield, Patches, Fewer Glyphs, Transloc, fancy potions and Taurog. In retrospect, Compression is probably the better seal and Viper Ward would be my item of choice if I didn't have Dragon Shield.

I'd much sooner go with a Halfling with the Trisword than an Orc with the Viper Ward. Just convert an item and chug a potion whenever you want to clear poison. The great thing about halfling with Trisword is that 80 CP = a healing potion, which when drank grants +2 base attack. The orc gets +2 base attack for 80 CP... so the Trilling basically gets his cake and eats it too if you can balance the timing of when to drink your potions.

To get the most out of translocation, ensure you also use the quest item or elite item preparation. It greatly increases the chance of rolling something great. Due to all the gold in the lower level of Naga City, you shouldn't need translocation unless you plan on tributing the heck out of Tikki Tooki.

Also: never go with fewer glyphs as an Orc; the extra attack booster prep is way, way better. The "fewer glyphs" effect will grant you only +2.5 extra base attack if you convert everything on the board. Even presuming a 100% attack bonus total that's only +5 damage. A 20% attack bonus will grant that much damage even if you only have 25 base attack. Furthermore, fewer glyphs means less piety from Taurog! Bottom line: never go with fewer glyphs as orcs or humans; always go with the extra attack booster prep!
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Re: Namtar's Lair and Naga City

Postby Lujo on Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:50 pm

Is there ever any situation where Fewer Gylphs is prefferable to More Glyphs? Because I can't think of one - you'll never convert all your glyphs, so I'm willing to bet you get more CP from More Glyphs anyway, plus all the piety perks (with Taurog, GG and refreshment). It's a pro tip that More glyphs is actually a piety boosting prep first and foremost...

Possibly wizards because you can find all the glyphs before you start converting? You'd need to be somewhere where there's a lot of junk like spoons to make it work even then...
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Re: Namtar's Lair and Naga City

Postby Darvin on Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:06 pm

Is there ever any situation where Fewer Gylphs is prefferable to More Glyphs?

Monster classes, maybe. Even then the attack bonus boost is pretty big for vampires and gorgons so I can't imagine using it for them.


you'll never convert all your glyphs

Well, there are warmongers, and many classes start with an extra glyph so they can convert all except one for the same effect.


so I'm willing to bet you get more CP from More Glyphs anyway

If you convert 3/4 glyphs on fewer glyphs then you get 450 CP.
If you convert 4/5 glyphs on normal glyph then you get 400 CP.
If you convert 5/6 glyphs on more glyphs then you get 400 CP.

For T3 classes:
If you convert 4/5 glyphs on fewer glyphs then you get 600 CP.
If you convert 5/6 glyphs on normal glyph then you get 500 CP.
If you convert 6/7 glyphs on more glyphs then you get 480 CP.

So fewer glyphs is still ahead overall, but not by much. There's very little benefit to be had here if you don't convert absolutely everything, and even then it's not enough to merit using this instead of the booster preps, and reducing the chances of finding useful glyphs just isn't worth this tradeoff.

More glyphs is definitely going to need a buff.


Possibly wizards because you can find all the glyphs before you start converting? You'd need to be somewhere where there's a lot of junk like spoons to make it work even then...

In an average scenario, wizards will curiously get more CP from more glyphs, since each one contributes +10 when converting an item. Since a typical dungeon will see you convert fewer than 8 things they will probably never become fully depleted until the end-game. For front-loaded conversion races like elves, humans, or orcs that's a non-issue.
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Re: Namtar's Lair and Naga City

Postby Lujo on Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:16 pm

Darvin wrote:More glyphs is definitely going to need a buff.


I assume you ment fewer glyphs?

And there's a big con to using fewer glyphs in that you're not prepping fireball magnet and you have to search a dungeon to round up the glyphs which ends up costing you exploration or really ups the difficulty in cramped maps...
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Re: Namtar's Lair and Naga City

Postby Blovski on Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:09 pm

Darvin wrote:I'd much sooner go with a Halfling with the Trisword than an Orc with the Viper Ward. Just convert an item and chug a potion whenever you want to clear poison. The great thing about halfling with Trisword is that 80 CP = a healing potion, which when drank grants +2 base attack. The orc gets +2 base attack for 80 CP... so the Trilling basically gets his cake and eats it too if you can balance the timing of when to drink your potions.


I wouldn't on Naga City - the reduced gold means you can't get as much in the way of cool items or conversion fodder topside (economy isn't too important below but it is above so if you really want to get the best out of a triling you have to put off using GG down below), you can't get the parched warmonger, which I was going for, and, more importantly, potion conversion is the easiest way to get on-demand GG and Dracul piety, so an Orc can just save up his potions then get an extra protection or swell or two whereas a triling is relying on them to make up his base attack. Also, if you have Dragonshield or Avatar's Symbol I think the triling's a lot weaker than a shielded Orc, viper ward is really just a compromise option that's an inherently small item (allowing it to be combined with a compressed fine sword or tower shield or anything in the shops) and stops you risking being forced to break parched topside.

I think Compression's probably better than Transloc for this strategy since inventory space gets very tight. Transloc is still silly good though.

You're right on the boosters, I haven't played much since the booster preps gave you one-offs. I guess only monster classes really get anything from fewer glyphs now. With a transmutation scroll you can eke out another 25-50ish conversion points from more glyphs. The loss of 10 Taurog piety isn't important with this strat since you'll get all the stuff, one death protection and max out comfortably without it before going downstairs.

Patches was probably the least wise part of my load-out, I think, since if you're going warmonger he can easily drop you in a corridor you don't want to be in. Worked out for me but probably shouldn't have risked it.
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Re: Namtar's Lair and Naga City

Postby Darvin on Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:14 pm

Yes, I meant fewer glyphs.

And there's a big con to using fewer glyphs in that you're not prepping fireball magnet and you have to search a dungeon to round up the glyphs which ends up costing you exploration or really ups the difficulty in cramped maps...

Yup; casters lose out on the smooth start from the fireball magnet, melee specialists lose out on the sheer power of the +20% attack bonus from the extra boosters. More glyphs has its niche as a surprising piety booster, and mana boosters is a decent one for wizards which already have fireball boosters. Health booster prep and fewer glyphs though seem to lack any good niches.

I wouldn't on Naga City - the reduced gold means you can't get as much in the way of cool items or conversion fodder topside (economy isn't too important below but it is above so if you really want to get the best out of a triling you have to put off using GG down below)

Use the black market. It pays for the Trisword and then some. You lose out on Patches, but that's not the end of the world.

you can't get the parched warmonger

If that's important to you, then yes you definitely want to skip out on the Halfling. I don't see why it's important to get both of these at once, but if that's what you want to do then sure.

Also, if you have Dragonshield or Avatar's Symbol I think the triling's a lot weaker than a shielded Orc

Against magic-damage enemies that's debatable. Against physical damage ones, Trilling is stronger.

Patches was probably the least wise part of my load-out, I think, since if you're going warmonger he can easily drop you in a corridor you don't want to be in. Worked out for me but probably shouldn't have risked it.

Patches is always a gamble. Sometimes he's just the most wonderful Teddy Bear in the world. Other times... you just want to should DAMN YOU, PATCHES.
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Re: Namtar's Lair and Naga City

Postby Sidestepper on Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:57 pm

Patches is one of those preps that simultaneously increases your average success rate AND your individual failure rate. I wouldn't take him if I had to bet the house on a single game, but I would take him if I had to bet the house on a 5-of-9 game set.

When he's being a good bear, it's like bolting the Thief's powerup special onto your character. When he's a bad bear, he mana burns your Warlord FIVE... TIMES... IN... A... ROW, or (my personal favorite) he uses his teleport power to reenact The Cask of Amontillado using an immured dungeon staircase.

"For the love of Jehora, Patches!"

"Yes, for the love of Jehora!"
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Re: Namtar's Lair and Naga City

Postby Lujo on Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:00 pm

Blovski wrote:Awesome machiavellian scheeming


Sir, I am in awe of your machiavellian scheeming. That's the kind of thinking that put Tinkers through Gaa'Telet. Huzzah!

@Darvin: About the Mana Booster prep - there really is no reason to prep elves anymore since you can load up a gnome wizard or just pick up mystic balance and have 3 fireballs per pool with that thing. It's hella strong.

@Patches - I once made a thread called "Patches the bad news bear". He was even more hilarious when you couldn't keep track of anything good he gave you, but only noticed the annoying through YOUCURSEDBEAR! kind of deals... :lol:

I also believe hes the single culprit behind the, stickied for some reason, "getting screwed by random" thread. Getting screwed over by the damned bear is more like it...
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