First!

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Re: First!

Postby paplaukes on Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:28 pm

I guess I never looked at the Fireball description after reading it once :) Thanks for the explanation.
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Re: First!

Postby Lujo on Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:00 pm

Nurator wrote:I think I am one the few people how really play monk in Vicious scenarios...


:lol:

Nurator wrote:and I must say, he is pretty overpowered.


:D
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Re: First!

Postby The Avatar on Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:58 pm

Overpowered? Well that's an understatement...
JakshdfFiha$#jaigb532i97fbnPKASN*@)sdjbau9a0)f+,Ahghs*hr)sk_sabdh^ujsbUA3{mvio/~dgffdsT^klndf,#ikon%(d

I speak chaos.
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Re: First!

Postby Minaro on Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:21 pm

Has there been much happening to the Vampire at all, or are there simply too few people available (aka, they haven't unlocked them yet) to properly test out the three monster classes? Vampire in it's current state struggles, to varying degrees depending on the map/random stuffs, but I find he always struggles. But once you get past that point, pretty much everything from that point on is a cakewalk for Vampires. Simply put, he feels far too weak on earlier levels and too strong later on.
Sure, the alpha vampire was just silly overpowered. If he could get past the first level or two, he'd stomp from that point on, especially with the right enemy/altar combinations. However, the current beta Vampire feels a bit too gimped. Compared to the alpha vampire, which got around by the combination of it's high base damage and first strike on earlier levels, not to mention the simple fireball spamming on mid-levels. The current vampire on the beta can't do much at all on earlier levels. He has no catapult materials and because he can't catapult, he can be seriously gimped early on due to not being able to regenerate properly. I find the vampire often struggling just to beat equal/one level higher enemies, which can lead to a serious xp shortage in the mid-levels. Even if you do beat a single level higher enemy, you're screwed simply because it's not enough to level you up, and leaves you exploring half the dungeon just to get some mana and health back to kill same/lower level enemies.

I dunno, the Vampire just feels too weak. In it's current state, where he can't even worship gods, the exhaustion effect just seems overkill. I've often found myself unable to finish dungeons as highly prepped Vampires, simply because he can't regenerate to take on anything on the early/mid levels. A vampire relies more heavily on luck than (almost?) all other classes in the game - monster locations, glyph location, shop locations etc etc. Playing a vampire on very enclosed levels can be a living nightmare. Maybe I just haven't played the vampire enough yet, but it all boils down to a weak earlygame and borderline insane lategame. A vampire lategame only cares about two things (depending on the boss(es)) - Taking as little damage as possible and getting as much lifesteal as possible (so he's looking to get as much conversion points as possible).
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Re: First!

Postby Darvin on Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:51 pm

But once you get past that point, pretty much everything from that point on is a cakewalk for Vampires. Simply put, he feels far too weak on earlier levels and too strong later on.

Yes, the vampire is very much a "weak early, strong late" class. The very challenge is figuring out a way to reach those high levels in good standing.

he can be seriously gimped early on due to not being able to regenerate properly

That's his weakness. Remember that a vampire doesn't heal on his own power; he heals by stealing life. It's a change in mindset, but I assure you he's quite powerful in his own right.

Even if you do beat a single level higher enemy, you're screwed simply because it's not enough to level you up, and leaves you exploring half the dungeon just to get some mana and health back to kill same/lower level enemies.

So absorb a bloodstain or kill a much lower-level foe (one-shot first-strike) or drink a potion. That will heal you up so you can keep fighting. Vampire is strong at high-levels; he can afford to lose some assets at lower levels.
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Re: First!

Postby Lujo on Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:58 pm

I still have to test him out a bit more, but he really only plays a lot different than other classes. HE doesn't even have to be too weak early on if you can find lvl-appropriate blood cows (like meatmen). But once you're lvl 6-7 with about 4 lvls of lifesteal, every time you explore you regenerate all your bloodcows which is quite a bit better than regenerating yourself only.

Grabbing a platemail, or alternatively GETINDARE, finding Pactmaker (or even Pactmaker with a Stone Sigil), or boosting your resists somehow also works - and prepping for a buyout (Gloves of midas, Fabulous Treasure + conversion seal, extra gold, quest items) so you can boost your cp are all good.

Timing your kills, timing your bloodsucking, timing your sanguine - it takes a bit of effort, but as far as I've seen he very much not underpowered. The only big issue with him I see is cramped maps which would deny him exploration to heal his bloodcows up, but that can probably be solved with binlor (who also boosts magic resists).



Gorgon (and half-dragon maybe) has huge issues. I've suggested a rework for her which I think would make her really good, sort of a tinker like thiefy monster class. I hope the devs go for it, she's terrible and even if she is actually good she looks like a mess...
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Re: First!

Postby Darvin on Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:10 pm

finding Pactmaker (or even Pactmaker with a Stone Sigil)

That still works? I thought the devs fixed that so the Vampire can no longer use him?

The only big issue with him I see is cramped maps which would deny him exploration to heal his bloodcows up, but that can probably be solved with binlor (who also boosts magic resists).

Vampire cannot worship deities. If you've found a way to do it (including Pactmaker) it's a bug.
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Re: First!

Postby Lujo on Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:13 pm

Nope, it still works. I used it in Gaan'Telet.

Report it?
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Re: First!

Postby Darvin on Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:19 pm

Lujo wrote:Nope, it still works. I used it in Gaan'Telet.

Report it?

Yup; screenshot and report it. Vampires should be unable to utilize any altars.
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Re: First!

Postby Minaro on Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:33 pm

Yeah, on the right maps, I found the vampire walking through most of the game with little to no effort (tried him out earlier today). On the wrong maps, or hell, even just the wrong set of enemies+positions, you can easily get screwed over. Some re-balancing to tilt things slightly for his earlygame might be in order, but that needs more testing. The vampire is so unorthodox, it's difficult to think of how to properly balance it.
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