Items, Items, and more Items!

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Re: Items, Items, and more Items!

Postby Lujo on Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:58 am

Darvin wrote:On the subject of purchasing the crystal ball:

use once - costs 20 gold / 20 gold per use
use twice - costs 25 gold / 12.5 gold per use
use three times - costs 30 gold / 10 gold per use
use four times - costs 35 gold / 8.75 gold per use
use five times - cost 40 gold / 8 gold per use

So I'd say you need to get at least three uses in to make it shine.


You can get more than that, but the big deal about it is not how many times you use it, but what using it allows you to spike. It creates fireballs out of nowhere. If you removed it from the game right now, the total hypotetical spiking power of glyph users would decrease instantly. It'd be like removing Mysterea or EM. With it, the gold ratios don't mean anything, when you need it, you'd pay anything, for the simple reason that stuff doesn't retaliate fireballs of pissorff, and if you can pull them out of nowhere you're messing with the average health per level balancing on monsters.

If you try that with say converting glyphs you'll run out of glyphs. If you try it with potions, you'll run out of potions (maybe), but gold? What other way is there for a spellcaster to turn gold into a bunch fireballs? (And yes, you could use it to fuel a trisword for upping PISSORFF damage, yay!)


Darvin wrote:Another thing on the Trisword: since I almost always open with a strength potion on serious dungeon run, all I need to do is suck back one more potion and it's basically just as good as a fine sword prep. I don't even need to use it as a trisword to have a useful and meaningful locker item...


Scroll up to where I was talking about the trisword and read carefully. the deal with it is that it's not actually an item so much as a repository of fine swords which get cheaper as you drink potions. First one costs you 18 gold (12 + 3 +3), second "fine sword" you buy and get to keep in the same slot reduces the average cost to 12 (you payed 12 gold for 2 fine swords)... Do the math... It's more about the inventory space, than anything else...

So if you prep it and drink 4 potions while leveling (STR, Dodge, Reflex, anything) it works as 2 Fine Swords that take one slot and cost less in game gold then buying just one fine sword would. If you buy it from a shop, they cost you less than buying 2 fine swords would if it were possible.
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Re: Items, Items, and more Items!

Postby FDru on Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:44 am

Lujo wrote:So if you prep it and drink 4 potions while leveling (STR, Dodge, Reflex, anything) it works as 2 Fine Swords that take one slot and cost less in game gold then buying just one fine sword would. If you buy it from a shop, they cost you less than buying 2 fine swords would if it were possible.


If potions are worth nothing, I guess...

You could argue that since the potions are being chugged then they are not worthless, but from personal experience, once I run out of "utility" potions (Strength, Quicksilver and Reflex particularly) I feel like I'm just throwing them away in most cases.
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Re: Items, Items, and more Items!

Postby The Avatar on Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:01 am

I don't know. A rogue with all 3 or those downed can get some SERIOUSLY high level kills at level 1 with a tri-sword, especially if you can spare an extra potion.
JakshdfFiha$#jaigb532i97fbnPKASN*@)sdjbau9a0)f+,Ahghs*hr)sk_sabdh^ujsbUA3{mvio/~dgffdsT^klndf,#ikon%(d

I speak chaos.
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Re: Items, Items, and more Items!

Postby Blovski on Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:16 am

Hmmm... what if it provided 1 HP per level per charge? This would mean that for characters with less than 200 HP it would be better than its current incarnation, while for those with more it'd be worse. Overheal is another option.


I kind of like the %-based heal more because it relates to your current HP rather than your current level. There's not really any other items except health potions that reward having high health for your level, which is why we don't see a lot of health-driven strats. Healing by level would favour low-HP characters (i.e. rogues) a little and more importantly res-stackers. I'd maybe pick it up an HP/level one more as a res-stacker getting more use out of the same amount of HP, but I can't see myself picking it up more often than now otherwise...
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Re: Items, Items, and more Items!

Postby paplaukes on Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:19 am

Church: I don't use these at all. MAYBE Binlor for the few places that wall you off. Most god penalties I'd just never take, even if they dropped the altar on the starting point. I feel like the game is balanced to be able to clear hard dungeons with any god/class, and it only might start breaking apart in the endgame, really vicious places, which push you to edge cases/strats/combos to be able to win. And I'm ok with that, but currently, on hard stuff, leaving these preps be.

Blacksmith: BS items are large, require keeping them the entire game (I think? there's a restock fee?) and are unlocked early on so they aren't that powerful. This means they get to compete with shop items and glyphs, and they just don't compare. So I only ever take the 10% attack booster. Used bear mace in a few situations (blinking mobs, dungeons that wall you off). Used shield early on. Or sword combined with lockered fine sword, again, early on.

Rock heart - Bought/used it once, the effect was underwhelming (I guess I expected alpha gorgon effect). Not even sure I'd buy it as a Binlor worshipper.

Pretty happy with other items. Would maybe veto a few early ones since there are better choices later in the game.
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Re: Items, Items, and more Items!

Postby Blovski on Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:57 pm

Blacksmith items are convertible - the specific keepers are the RBS and the Slayer Wand - the first requiring you to keep it until you're done with a phys-res boss, the second requiring you to keep it until you've zapped whatever you want to (especially in Dragon Isles, for instance). Trick with swords especially is to use them to get a better first level kill and then just swap them out once you've found something else.

Rock Heart is very situational but has great cp:cost ratio. The main users are things like Pisorfing Orc Wizards, which get effectively a 2 MP, healing pisorf, or some Binlor worshippers (I used it with a Binlor Gorgon yesterday, which worked really solidly).
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Re: Items, Items, and more Items!

Postby paplaukes on Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:07 pm

Ta for clearing that up - still, it's a small 10% attack booster throughout the game vs situational items. Then again I'm a hoarder, prefer going through game having a fireball+weytwut+imawal + something else just in case over conversion goodies.
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Re: Items, Items, and more Items!

Postby Lujo on Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:59 pm

I just had a thought - Crystall Ball is too good because it turns gold into Fireballs, Trisword is too good because it turns gold into cheap non-slot taking fine swords with too little effort, but maybe the biggest issue is the general availability of GOLD.

Not saying Trisword and CB don't need to get hit, they do. So do Binlor (maybe) and B2P (certanly) (naysayers can take a look at the new pics in the playthrough notes).

But the introduction of the second boss, and ingame gold on boss death (25!) really made in-dungeon gold flow rather freely if you're not using it to buy expensive stuff. Couple this with Gloves of Midas, add the fact that Black Market can practicaly be auto-prep in most cases, and add TT if you feel like it. I'm not even going to go into compression seal and blacksmith preps, as I haven't been aware of them up till now, and Fabulous Treasure is a lazy CP secret prep anyway...

Then consider that too many generic subdungeons seem to have a bunch of gold in them, and draw your conclusions...
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Re: Items, Items, and more Items!

Postby Darvin on Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:27 pm

But the introduction of the second boss, and ingame gold on boss death (25!) really made in-dungeon gold flow rather freely if you're not using it to buy expensive stuff

I quite like this; the ability to really go shopping on the more difficult dungeons after the first boss kill was a cool change to the game flow. I'd rather address the Trisword and Crystal Ball individually rather than change anything there.

I'd like to see these items move away from gold limitations to other things.
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Re: Items, Items, and more Items!

Postby Lujo on Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:39 pm

Yeah, I'm cool with dealing with CB and the Trisword rather than that, I was just pointing it out. In simmilar scenarious I remember times when the devs opted to deal with this kind of thing with such a general nerf (say in case of overexploration, the basic item conversion bonanza plantation), but I'm cool either way...

You have to remember though that the original Trisword actually WAS balanced around what the Trisword actually breaks - you get as much damage as you'd get from a bunch of fine swords, but you have to sacrifice item slots. The same logic sort of goes behind the current one - you have to sacrifice your buying power, except you don't really sacrifice your buying power if you're just looking for damage since there is nothing else to buy... The old one gave fine swords for no money, this one gives fine swords for no inventory space (and an opportunity cost in potions, but that's obviously not working as intended)...

And if it moves from the current scheme, then the potion races get a bit of a shaft (not that they aren't strong, but I doubt an average newbie/casual can really see that, especially for the halflings). Heck, a trisword-like big damage booster could very well work like the ancient trisword of yore - +X damage for every empty item slot, with a level cap, see how you liek them apples. And we could have a +1 damage trigger on potion use thing which only counted health and mana potions and turned better than a fine sword with a sufficent investment (or whatever).

The Crystall Ball - it was originally introduced as a way to help spellcasters, and after you do a thorough playthrough, you can sort of see why it's available early and not as a VICOUS reward - it was probably to help Wizards in the early kingdom development. I'd say the most evil thing you could do would be to make any gold cost it has include a -X total mana hit. But I'm at a bit of a loss here, that effect is both too powerfull and has no competition whatsoever...
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