Hard dungeons that I find to be exceedigly difficult

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Hard dungeons that I find to be exceedigly difficult

Postby FDru on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:32 am

The Labyrinth - finding Rex early is a death sentence so exploration is tricky. Good leveling opportunities are rare since high level enemies are usually along the outer walls (I frequently reach end-game with no popcorn because that stuff needs to be killed early just to level). Often the map creates one long hallway that gives you a (in most cases) 50/50 chance per kill of getting stuck in it once Rex is following. Getting stuck between Rex and a high level mob is usually a game over due to death or critical resource loss. Rex basically becomes Bleaty at half hp; will one-shot kill anything but extreme HP / resist builds.

Shifting Passages - a bit of the same problem as The Labyrinth, only with a much more lenient early game. Frequent losses due to inability to chase the boss through the thin corridors late-game. This can either be easy (strong low-level character starting the boss fight with only a few kills) or extremely hard (many high level enemies remaining with most of the map cleared).

Cursed Oasis - may be more forgiving since the last update, but was probably my most hated dungeon before that. I cannot say what is most aggravating about this dungeon.. the difficult mobs (animated armors, thralls and shades), the excessive curses or annoying bosses. Probably tied with Shifting Passages as the Hard dungeon I'd least like to play currently.

Looking for: Nerfs and/or sympathy and/or strategies to consistently beat any of the above with any class (I try to take in a class I have not completed the dungeon with when one comes up as the burning dungeon).
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Re: Hard dungeons that I find to be exceedigly difficult

Postby Lujo on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:33 am

Labyrinth suffers from the same problems as any cramped map: you take binlor in and play like a fool - you have no problems. You try most other things - no dice. Except Binlor's prep penalty actually makes it harder because you can't really slam stuff into walls as well as without it, and I frequntly reach the endgame with the outer ring of the labyrinth intact, let alone monsters.

Shifting passages are the second most difficult HARD dungeon, and walking in there without heavy preps hasn't really worked all that well for me.

I don't scum, either.

CO - could probably lose the animated armors. If there's a trick to it I can't tell - I beat it by managing my curses and being really careful about my kill order, or abusing any "exploit of the week" but that's basicaly all...
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Re: Hard dungeons that I find to be exceedigly difficult

Postby paplaukes on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:58 am

Bear mace can help, more glyphs prep (better chance at finding pisorf/endiswal or at least weytwut) can help.
I find Shifting passages is easier of the two wall dungeons. It lets you explore early, and grab the goodies + glyphs/binlor if available. If not, you still get to pick and choose what level mobs to fight and what to skip til later, leveling up faster and leaving some popcorn behind.

Cursed Oasis - what's the more forgiving bit? Subdungeons? I got it as burning dungeon now but I'm postponing the inevitable :) Easiest mobs to level on seem to be bandits (can't get cursed much). Or shades if you got a knockback/slow.
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Re: Hard dungeons that I find to be exceedigly difficult

Postby FDru on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:08 pm

Lujo wrote:I don't scum, either.


Same here.

The problem with taking Binlor in Labyrinth is that it's difficult to use PISORF effectively in there (to the point that even gaining the initial ~30 piety for an ENDISWALL is tough), the MR from his boons is not particularly useful (dragonspawn, and if you're lucky a magic-dealing 2nd boss; wraiths are a joke and you need to avoid getting hit by them anyway) and, as you already mentioned, the Binlor prep makes a terrible mess of things. I have had great results when finding Binlor un-prepped and finding a WEYTWUT glyph to set up knockback chains, but I just don't see Binlor prep as a "consistent" strategy (unless I've just been very unlucky). Though, I suppose the (eventually) guaranteed ENDISWALL is probably a good thing.

One interesting thing I've noticed is that prepping ol' Bin on Shifting Passages reveals where a good amount of the walls are going to spawn :lol:
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Re: Hard dungeons that I find to be exceedigly difficult

Postby FDru on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:48 pm

K so GG is overpowered or something.

I just did a Purist Orc Transmuter run in Shifting Passages... the best part being that when I spawned inside the dungeon I spammed LEMMISI until the entire map was revealed. The only subdungeon was a "Exploding Signposts" so I got one compression scroll to use on the fireball glyph. I used all of my gold to buy various items to convert. I had 6 HPs when I got my first kill against a level 4 using GETINDARE. All level 1 and 2 mobs were absolved.

21 prayer beads when I used Enlightenment

2 Schadenfreude potions and one protection boon to kill Aequitas at level 6

1 dodge against the boss, and he took 4 hits to kill

Yays?

(not technically purist, but the only prep used was Binlor and I didn't even use the altar)
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Re: Hard dungeons that I find to be exceedigly difficult

Postby Lujo on Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:44 pm

Yep, Absolution would still be good if it wasn't this good, we got video proof of that :D

EDIT: Tbh, the list of things I complained about or thought needed any more fiddling with is really not all that long, and I never mentioned GG/absolution stuff because I thought that if all the other stuff got what's coming to it, it would become so obvious that it'd get toned down and then just about everything would be where it looks like it's supposed to be, from the player side. There are only a handfull of silly features left, which is great!

And also, the ammount of times I had to explore the entire map on Shifting Passages is a bit worrying, maybe.
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Re: Hard dungeons that I find to be exceedigly difficult

Postby Darvin on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:28 pm

The Labyrinth - finding Rex early is a death sentence so exploration is tricky. Good leveling opportunities are rare since high level enemies are usually along the outer walls (I frequently reach end-game with no popcorn because that stuff needs to be killed early just to level)

Yeah, the Labyrinth really necessitates either wall-breaking or WEYTWUT to tackle effectively. Otherwise, you end up being forced down a highly linear path that prevents you from making any strategic preparations.

Finding Rexx early is only a death sentence if you're also forced to traverse a long hallway. That's more a problem with the map layout than anything.


Rex basically becomes Bleaty at half hp; will one-shot kill anything but extreme HP / resist builds.

His damage is way below Bleaty. Anyone with maxed-out stoneskin should be able to survive him if they're a decent level for boss-fighting. If you're about level 8 and have your resources in place, Rexx is a push-over. It's getting your ducks lined up for this battle that's tough.


Shifting Passages - a bit of the same problem as The Labyrinth, only with a much more lenient early game. Frequent losses due to inability to chase the boss through the thin corridors late-game. This can either be easy (strong low-level character starting the boss fight with only a few kills) or extremely hard (many high level enemies remaining with most of the map cleared).

Again, wall-breaking makes this one easy enough. Unlike Labyrinth, you should be able to explore most of the dungeon before it closes in on you so you're more likely to find a wall-breaking utensil. It's also possible to clear out the high-level mobs before it starts to get tight. Furthermore, the boss blinks so saving exploration space for him isn't a perogative anyways. All things considered, this is a far cry from the labyrinth and totally manageable.


Cursed Oasis - may be more forgiving since the last update, but was probably my most hated dungeon before that. I cannot say what is most aggravating about this dungeon.. the difficult mobs (animated armors, thralls and shades), the excessive curses or annoying bosses. Probably tied with Shifting Passages as the Hard dungeon I'd least like to play currently.

Cursed Oasis is definitely annoying, but I wouldn't put it above any of the other nasty hard-difficulty dungeons. I'd put it behind Slime Pit, personally, which is basically just a cess-pool of debuff monsters and fatty bosses.


Looking for: Nerfs and/or sympathy and/or strategies to consistently beat any of the above with any class (I try to take in a class I have not completed the dungeon with when one comes up as the burning dungeon).

Prep Binlor; he'll clear a path for you on the maze dungeons.

Except Binlor's prep penalty actually makes it harder because you can't really slam stuff into walls as well as without it, and I frequntly reach the endgame with the outer ring of the labyrinth intact, let alone monsters.

You want to use Binlor to clear walls, then convert out to someone else once walls become a bit depleted. Binlor's own boons aren't particularly useful on these dungeons (except stoneskin, which is great against Rexx) so use him to bust walls then convert.


so GG is overpowered or something.

I just did a Purist Orc Transmuter run in Shifting Passages...

Absolution will remove monsters from play without causing the dungeon to close in on you. One of the biggest challenges with Shifting Passages is the high monster damage that makes 1-shots a little too common for comfort. GG solves that problem.

As for GG being too powerful, the issue is finding GG at level 1. Because absolution doesn't scale by level, its effects are disproportionate for low-level characters. Secondly, GG grants piety for conversion so finding him before you've started converting in earnest is a huge benefit. Thirdly, the earlier you take humility the more bonus XP it is worth over the course of the run, so a level 1 find helps that. Finally, the lower the level you find GG the more piety he kicks out over the course of gameplay. Find him at level 5 and go to level 10 and he'll give you 45 piety from level-ups. Go from level 1 to 10 and he'll give you 135 piety from level-ups.

All this comes together to make GG exceedingly powerful if found at level 1, but this power drops off to more reasonable levels if you find him later.
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Re: Hard dungeons that I find to be exceedigly difficult

Postby Lujo on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:11 pm

Darvin wrote:Slime Pit, personally, which is basically just a cess-pool of debuff monsters and fatty bosses.


Quoted for much thruth.


You want to use Binlor to clear walls


That's the thing - it's the one map where Binlor's current incarnation doesn't nearly do the job good enough. Well, starting it off with a few "Stone Hearts" (10 piety, 15 walls) ought to do the trick though.

except stoneskin, which is great against Rexx


This IS true.


stuff about GG only being good at lvl1... All this comes together to make GG exceedingly powerful if found at level 1, but this power drops off to more reasonable levels if you find him later.



Ah, see, but the thing about that is - he's worth revealing the entire map to find him at lvl1. Overwhelmingly so, considering that 1) he doesn't require exploration to gain piety with, 2) if you want him, nothing else is probably better, 3) you can join him off a piety farm with whome you can gather piety while you explore without leveling or converting anything (Binlor, say), 3) the more stuff you've revealed - the faster you can gain piety, 4) absolution is an exploration hog anyway and works better with a series of dings.

He's one of those things where you can play like a complete fool intentionally, with the payoff being well wort it.
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Re: Hard dungeons that I find to be exceedigly difficult

Postby Darvin on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:27 pm

1) he doesn't require exploration to gain piety with

The only gods that do need exploration resources to function are JJ, Binlor, Mystera, and Earthmother. Even then EM is arguable. Dracul, Taurog, Glowing Guardian, Tikki Tooki, and Pactmaker are all exploration independent (to be fair TT can be piety farmed with WEYTWUT or WONAFYT, but that's a highly ineffective approach that usually only serves to mitigate piety loss rather than actually provide real gains).

2) if you want him, nothing else is probably better

At level 1? Certainly not. However, the dropoff is substantial and this mentality is gone by level 3.

Perhaps a good solution may to make absolution only work on lower level monsters rather than those who are equal-or-lower. This would mean that GG would have effectively no useable boons at level 1, so the only benefit to the level 1 find would be to get the piety-ticker going. That'd go quite a ways to bringing him under control.

Both GG and JJ need to move away from the "find immediately or ignore" mentality, with GG being on the too strong side and JJ being on the too weak side. Along with mystic balance (which really needs help now that it no longer affects APHEELSIK) that's the only deity issue that absolutely need attention.
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Re: Hard dungeons that I find to be exceedigly difficult

Postby paplaukes on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:40 pm

WEYTWUT alone doesn't help. Recent Labyrinth run I had was a single line through half a dungeon, mobs every 3-4 spaces. 1 subdungeon, 0 altars. Eventually you just run out of space to regen and the boss arrives. It's like getting screwed by blocked entrances in Grimm's grotto, only by design :)
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