Munchkin Time

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Munchkin Time

Postby Darvin on Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:58 am

I'm in a munchkin mood, and want to share my musings. I'm looking into using BLUDTUPOWA and fire heart to create an infinite loop. It looks like it's just outside of the realm of realism, and I'm wondering if anyone can add to this to make it work.

The idea is to remain 1st level (dropping back down with humility is okay, probably even optimal) while increasing your HP as much as possible. Nothing else matters, just increase your max HP as much as possible. We will either use BURNDAYRAZ or PISORF/IMAWAL to fuel our onslaught. We will use BLUDTUPOWA to cast spells and fuel the fire heart, which then restores the spent HP. In a practical sense, this combo will work quite well even as a non-infinite combo. I'm going to take it one step further: I presume the map is fully-explored and BLUDTUPOWA is granting 1 MP for 3 HP. There are two approaches that immediately come to mind.

A (dwarf) wizard can use a PISORF/IMAWAL combo for 6 MP. This will give us two fire heart charges. Restoring 6 MP with B2P costs 18 HP. With a few effects (rock heart and dragon soul) to boost efficiency we can drop the effective HP cost per casting cycle down to 11.5 HP. If that's equal or less than 10% of your total HP, then we've got an infinite loop. So presuming we get our triumvirate of items, we need 120 HP to pull this off.

A Halfling Transmuter will use a mystic-balanced BURNDAYRAZ instead for 5 MP. This will only give us one charge, however. Instead, use relies on the fact that he gets 3 CP per casting (including B2P) and every 80 CP he gets an extra health potion for a 40% health restore. The math here is a bit trickier since only fireball counts against the heart, but both glyphs count to the conversion (you will lose some mana when you hit the threshold, but our max mana will be fairly low so the loss will be negligible compared to our overall throughput). Without the dragon soul we have a 5:1 cycle of B2P and BURNDAYRAZ, costing us 15 HP. We get 5% of our max health from the fire heart, and 9% from the fraction of a potion we've earned. We'd need about 110 HP to make this work. With the dragon's soul we get 17:4 cycle (on average) of B2P and BURNDAYRAZ; this is worth 20% health restore from fire heart and 31.5% from potions. We'd need about 100 HP to make this work.

Both look pretty iffy;

The wizard appears to be the trickier of the two. An EM prep makes a lot of sense since it gives us IMAWAL (one less thing to scum for), a HP-granting boon, and an easy way to convert into either GG or JJ for more health. It also requires two quest items from our shops and we need to scum for one of those other two deities. However, the health range appears doable if we can make this happen; 32 from Earthmother, 40 from GG, 20 from base health (humility), 6 from boosters, 16 from dwarf conversions and even one HP boosting item will put us into over-unity range. However, that's a lot of scumming to even get this far.

The Transmuter approach vastly simplifies item and glyph requirements, but has nearly untenable deity requirements. He needs mystic balance to pull this off so Mystera is necessary, and he must play Halfling. With EM and dwarf out of the combo, that means that even though the transmuter needs 20 less HP than the wizard. This still leaves us 33 HP short, too much to be bridged by items alone; we need a 3-deity combo to make this happen.


Anyone can think of a way to do this or add to it? I'm aware it's absurdly scummy, but it's an infinite loop, and that justifies everything. Ideas?
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Re: Munchkin Time

Postby FDru on Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:12 am

Darvin wrote:A (dwarf) wizard can use a PISORF/IMAWAL combo for 6 MP.


More like 7 MP.

P.S. Lack of infinite blackspace kind of eliminates the possibility of an infinite loop using B2P. I see what you're trying to accomplish, though. I think B2P isn't ever going to be efficient enough for the job, unless somehow you got ludicrous amount of health on a Halfling Transmuter or something.
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Re: Munchkin Time

Postby q 3 on Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:31 am

A lv 1 Sorcerer can (still) do it with just BLUDTOPOWA and around 25-30 max HP (limited only by blackspace). The penalty the devs added to his use of the glyph isn't quite enough to preclude an infinite loop, and the only barrier is that a lv 1 Sorcerer wastes some of his HP recovery unless he has high max HP. (BLUDTOPOWA has 7 HP cost for 4 MP recovery, which leads to 8 HP recovery, for a net gain of 1 HP every time you cast it. You actually have enough leftover to work in an occasional BLUDTOPOWA on a fully explored floor, just for the extra +1 MP.)
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Re: Munchkin Time

Postby harfatum on Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:48 am

Does the Alchemist Scroll add to this?
Have a mug of tea.
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Re: Munchkin Time

Postby Sidestepper on Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:49 am

Darvin's point is that since B2P gives mana equal to (tiles reaveled + 1), it still gives you one mana even when there is no blackspace left. Try it.

I think the only way to get this would be to prep a Dwarf Wizard with Fireheart or Stone Heart, Extra Glyphs, Earthmother and Quest Items. You'd also really want a custom tailored profile with with minimal unlocks. Gaan Telet wouldbe the perfect place because it is very open and checking the shops is easy.

With a bit of scumming and hacking, I actually got the combo. VGT is the place to try it. It's easy to quickly check for glyphs and shops, and you have a 100% chance being able to get either ENDISWAL or IMAWAL (your choice) as an on worship effect.

The problem is that ENDISWAL doesn't charge the Fireheart if cast on empty space. Petrifying plants does work, but now you need a way to get renewable plants.
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Re: Munchkin Time

Postby Darvin on Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:32 am

More like 7 MP.

IMAWAL costs less mana to cast on an empty tile.

Lack of infinite blackspace kind of eliminates the possibility of an infinite loop using B2P

B2P still grants 1 MP even if you reveal no tiles. This is what I'm number crunching: 3 HP for 1 MP. So yes, this would be infinite.

A lv 1 Sorcerer can (still) do it with just BLUDTOPOWA and around 25-30 max HP (limited only by blackspace).

Sorcerer B2P costs you 7 HP and grants +1 MP on an empty map. Spending 1 MP regenerates 2 HP, so the net cost is 5 HP for 1 MP. This is worse than the 3 HP for 1 MP combination other classes have going. This works well if you've still got blackspace, but not once you do not.

Does the Alchemist Scroll add to this?

It only works once per level, so it's worth +8 or +16 if you're using GG for humility. Not considerably better than the pendant of health.
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Re: Munchkin Time

Postby FDru on Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:55 am

Darvin wrote:IMAWAL costs less mana to cast on an empty tile.


Well now you dun exploded my mind... but doesn't that make it 5 MP?

B2P still grants 1 MP even if you reveal no tiles. This is what I'm number crunching: 3 HP for 1 MP. So yes, this would be infinite.


Oh right. I... knew that, but totally skimmed your original post so I could look dumb.
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Re: Munchkin Time

Postby Darvin on Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:22 am

Okay, IMAWAL's cost when cast on an empty tile by a wizard is 1 MP, and it does not charge the fire heart as a result. That changes my math to 4 MP per cycle but only +5% instead of +10% from the fire heart. The Transmuter is looking to be the better bet.
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Re: Munchkin Time

Postby Bloggorus on Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:23 am

Question: why the limitation to level 1? Am I missing something?
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Re: Munchkin Time

Postby Naoya on Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:24 am

I assume its to keep the cost of B2P low.

I've gotta say: WOW. Nice job, that idea... a bit insanse, but brilliant . If we get this to work, could we theoretically kill bosses with it?
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