The tale of ye old brokene CYDSTEPP. Facultative.

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Re: The tale of ye old brokene CYDSTEPP. Facultative.

Postby Lujo on Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:45 pm

No no, it's a tale of how sometimes stuff that's been taken for granted isn't all that necessary and why sometimes nerfs and adjustments are a very good thing.

The nerf of cydstep (dun da dun, sounds like a shakespeare play) resulted in the overall difficulty curve going down instead of up and the game becoming much more acessible. It actually WAS weighting it down. :)
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Re: The tale of ye old brokene CYDSTEPP. Facultative.

Postby Sidestepper on Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:13 pm

I think you are overgeneralizing from your own experiences. I remember when CYDSTEP + Rogue was the ultimate combo (look at my handle) but I think that I actually played a CYDSTEP Rogue only once. I never seemed to find the combo and was never interested in scumming. I also don't feel particularly 'steered' by things like Dragonshield or the high end potions. I bust out the Dragonshield for VGT and that's about it. Most of my runs are Purist, or only make use of palliative things like Burn Salve and Fortitude.

I also remember Sensational Stone Monk Orcs, and I even tried it once. It was fun! But then I went back to doing other things. In a game where there are 28 classes and maybe ~100 different preps, you need some some kind of compulsion disorder to narrowly stick to a single combination for the entire game.
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Re: The tale of ye old brokene CYDSTEPP. Facultative.

Postby Lujo on Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:35 pm

I played him a couple of times to see what all the fuss is about - the problem was that stuff was being compared to him. Then I purpusefully avoided him.

28 classes?

And you're right about it being silly to narrowly stick to something, I've done it 3 times - with the monk in the alpha, because I couldn't play the game and monk just won on his own, with the monk and the thief in the early beta (from my point of view) because the powercurve was adjusted for well above average difficulty, and those two were well above, and during the minimalist run to prove a point.

The last two playthroughs I actually made note of stretches which made me feel like I need something above curve to beat places, this time I made sure I try everything any anything wherever I could. But it's hard no to notice the gap, especially once the PQI starts sending you on really tricky missions - some classes grab several badges in what can be seen as unfavourable circumstances, others pull through because of vicious reward and potion preps.
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Re: The tale of ye old brokene CYDSTEPP. Facultative.

Postby Sidestepper on Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:45 pm

Err... 22. I added the bonus classes twice by mistake.

It's time to come out of your cujo-lujo state again. Everyone knows that balancing involves nerfs, the devs have seen our 1st level boss kills and have previously stated that they don't want that to be possible, and things will get adjusted when they feel it makes sense to divert resources to it. We don't really need threads like this because at the end of the day, most of us 'get it,' they just don't share your sense of urgency.
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Re: The tale of ye old brokene CYDSTEPP. Facultative.

Postby Lujo on Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:47 pm

Youre right.

I'm limiting my forum activities to the playthrough notes again, this has gone on longer than needed, no clue what came over me. I've been spamming the same stuff over and over again for days, I'm sorry.
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Re: The tale of ye old brokene CYDSTEPP. Facultative.

Postby Sidestepper on Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:51 pm

Your feedback is actually very good, it's just a bit voluminous and a bit too insistent. Experience has taught me that if you want to be listened to, speak infrequently and only chose the most important item.
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Re: The tale of ye old brokene CYDSTEPP. Facultative.

Postby Lujo on Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:57 pm

I get incredibly voluminous and panicky when I get the feeling I'm incapable of properly explaining something, when I just didn't realize that the other person has in fact understood two posts ago. I'm sorry.

Anyway, I'm not happy about my recent spam, and I've said all there is to say several times over, and further talk from me would obscure interesting new stuff like your EM antics, which I enjoy. I'll keep going through the PQI and making notes in the, err, notes, and contribute to the subdungeon and simmilar threads. For sake of everybody else and my own conicence.
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Re: The tale of ye old brokene CYDSTEPP. Facultative.

Postby q 3 on Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:48 pm

The danger in highlighting stuff and asking for a nerf is that there's a significant risk that the wrong thing gets nerfed, or nerfed in the wrong way. E.g., the CYDSTEPP Rogue - it wasn't really CYDSTEPP that was the problem, it was the Rogue. I think experience has borne that out: there was never talk of, say, the CYDSTEPP Berserker (even though he had an even better damage bonus than the Rogue way back then) or the CYDSTEPP Assassin (who also has first strike). Moreover, the Rogue has remained just as crazy as ever, probably even moreso now that all you really need is a GG altar (as opposed to CYDSTEPP plus ???).

Nerfing CYDSTEPP but not touching the Rogue meant that every other class lost out on a potent, but not overpowered, strategy, and let the Rogue continue to exploit whatever other cheese he can find. This is why I personally tend to be very wary of claims that "X is too strong" and "X needs a nerf," because there are just so many variables involved that it's very easy to overcompensate.
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Re: The tale of ye old brokene CYDSTEPP. Facultative.

Postby Lujo on Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:57 pm

Well, I think it was both Rogue and Cydstepp there - Cydstepp lets anyone ignore health completely as long as he can pay around 10 mana. It's too good an effect, and I'm using the current Cydstep and prepping the Namtars Ward all the time, so I don't feel like I lost out there. I personaly like my damage dealers minding their health as opposed to mana, and the mechanic was very much too good to have on a repeatable glyph. Walking in on CYDSTEP meant you could pretty much drop whatever you are doing, and go kill the boss, for quite a few guys.

Otherwise, youre right, the synergy was too huge, and the random dodge you get whenever you have a DP string is just over the top. Should've both got hit there and then. But I'm done with all this - I said all there is, too many times.

Anyone interested, I've got a few days of short PQI notes acummulating in a playthrough notes post. All the grumbling about the potions being too good wasn't baseles, so if anyone's interested, it might be worth a look.
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Re: The tale of ye old brokene CYDSTEPP. Facultative.

Postby Darvin on Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:42 pm

I'd still like CYDSTEPP to require a minimum amount of health rather than full health to activate (say 5 HP per level; a stock Rogue would need full health, everyone else would just need half-health) but I won't cry if this is how it ends up in the final game.
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