The high end potions and the difficulty curve

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Re: The high end potions and the difficulty curve

Postby paplaukes on Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:20 am

Bloggorus wrote:Introducing powerful mechanics too early can short circuit the player's desire to improve. It's a bit like giving a teenager a mustang for his birthday; yeah it's awesome for a while, but they miss out on a sense of achievement and pride when they buy their own shitty car.


All is fine except for I feel the potions aren't the mustang, the sword is. I hope it gets a proper cap and potions remain relatively unscathed. We'll see how it goes. Also, I would say this last potion unlock can come kinda late - the quest was definitely something I postponed for quite a while.
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Re: The high end potions and the difficulty curve

Postby paplaukes on Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:20 am

Bloggorus wrote:Introducing powerful mechanics too early can short circuit the player's desire to improve. It's a bit like giving a teenager a mustang for his birthday; yeah it's awesome for a while, but they miss out on a sense of achievement and pride when they buy their own shitty car.


All is fine except for I feel the potions aren't the mustang, the sword is. I hope it gets a proper cap and potions remain relatively unscathed. We'll see how it goes. Also, I would say this last potion unlock can come kinda late - the quest was definitely something I postponed for quite a while.
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Re: The high end potions and the difficulty curve

Postby Lujo on Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:36 am

paplaukes wrote:All is fine except for I feel the potions aren't the mustang, the sword is. I hope it gets a proper cap and potions remain relatively unscathed. We'll see how it goes. Also, I would say this last potion unlock can come kinda late - the quest was definitely something I postponed for quite a while.


Ofc it's the sword. And what you say about not rushing the unlock - I'd say that the three whoopases could have their unlock postponed untill PQI hits in. Reason being, again, that they make undoable runs doable - really, check the playthrough notes for the last 3 notes with all the PQI stuff and take a good look at what I'm being set up with. That's what they let you beat. If there's no other way around it, then sure, they're necessary as preps, but otherwise they are much, much more powerfull and influental than they've been given credit for around the forums.

Which is why I'm glad that there are people who are at least considering a possible change to their prep cost or exclusivness or fuel triggers a good thing.
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Re: The high end potions and the difficulty curve

Postby Bloggorus on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:19 am

paplaukes wrote:
Bloggorus wrote:Introducing powerful mechanics too early can short circuit the player's desire to improve. It's a bit like giving a teenager a mustang for his birthday; yeah it's awesome for a while, but they miss out on a sense of achievement and pride when they buy their own shitty car.


All is fine except for I feel the potions aren't the mustang, the sword is. I hope it gets a proper cap and potions remain relatively unscathed. We'll see how it goes. Also, I would say this last potion unlock can come kinda late - the quest was definitely something I postponed for quite a while.


I think you missed my point. The combined, multiplicative power of potions and other preps is the mustang.

I argue that the community, and the devs who listen to them, are missing the underlying problem in the potions. This is not about isolated strats, its about how broad the benefit of five potions is for all classes as strats.

The devs have done a good job balancing preps to ensure they are as much of a double edged sword as a straight boon. I think potion slots need the same treatment.
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Re: The high end potions and the difficulty curve

Postby paplaukes on Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:48 am

What's the double edge you're talking about? Cost? Limited slots?

I get triple potion hit is more powerful than separate potions, it also costs more. I wouldn't spend 50g extra on them "just in case", like I don't spend 50g on amulet of yendor/translocation scroll. It's also a one-shot thing instead of a permanent strength bump. It can be used on a hard boss or perhaps a few bonus xp but I honestly don't think that's worth the price in hard dungeons.

As for multiplication with other preps, trisword being uncapped might be the bigger problem.
At the very least I'd like to see better examples of said multiplicative combinations.
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Re: The high end potions and the difficulty curve

Postby Blovski on Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:16 pm

Well, the potions aren't really the problem with the trisword cap, it's more that at level 1 you can throw down reflex, strength and quicksilver for a permanent +6 base damage, a level 4-5ish kill, which bypasses the problem of high blackspace consumption exploro-fighting at level 1-2, nets you more bonus XP and saves you popcorn. Now, the most of that would work fine without the trisword, the reason that's such a viable/monster strategy is that it provides a permanent front-loaded stat-boost, but having +6 base damage for the whole game as a rogue or berserker is a huge deal. Incidentally, this also makes TT more desirable, because then you can stick your base damage and early boost onto late-game dodge-and-reflex fighting.

Frankly, the reason the occasional novelty strategies I come up with avoid the trisword is that it tends to make life dull.
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Re: The high end potions and the difficulty curve

Postby Dreamdancer on Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:55 pm

On the issue with the Trisword. Possible solution could be to make it similar to the Alchemist Scroll, meaning one could use the +2 damage buff only once every level. By lvl10 one would have +20 damage (if one uses the buff each lvl), which is not weak (i mean it's nearly half of the base damage from levels). But it would solve the problem with the 3pots at level1.
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Re: The high end potions and the difficulty curve

Postby FDru on Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:03 pm

Dreamdancer wrote:On the issue with the Trisword. Possible solution could be to make it similar to the Alchemist Scroll, meaning one could use the +2 damage buff only once every level. By lvl10 one would have +20 damage (if one uses the buff each lvl), which is not weak (i mean it's nearly half of the base damage from levels). But it would solve the problem with the 3pots at level1.


Been suggested already. The problem is that, like the Alchemist Scroll, the Trisword becomes another useless late-game purchase.
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Re: The high end potions and the difficulty curve

Postby Dreamdancer on Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:30 pm

Been suggested already. The problem is that, like the Alchemist Scroll, the Trisword becomes another useless late-game purchase.


Ok, i see the point. Probably one could tweak the mechanic. One could make it so, the one can only have a number of buffs from it (Trisword) as on has levels. Meaning at lvl1 one could use the buff once every level (or ave it for later). If one buys the Trisword at lvl7 one can use the buff 7times, for another buff one would need to lvlup.

Think for the Alchemist Scroll such a mechanic wouldn't be good... The Scroll would then seem too good to me...
(Would be a wet dream for an halfling priest going B2P)
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Re: The high end potions and the difficulty curve

Postby paplaukes on Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:47 pm

It's probably been suggested already too, but might make trisword work on health/mana pots only. Honestly, I'd just take a fine sword over much more expensive tri + pots and all that hassle and cheese.
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