Super Vicious

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Re: Super Vicious

Postby FDru on Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:16 am

Lujo wrote:How about Absolution giving 2 beads?


That could be construed as a buff, depending on your strategy. It would definitely buff Enlightenment, as you are gaining more beads for less piety. Going for Miser? PILE ON THE BEADS.
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby Lujo on Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:20 am

Well, it's the only thing that's really hurt by the change - you could argue the loss of overall health, sure, but that can be made up in several ways (or rather might be, I'm not that sure) - beads can't.
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby Blovski on Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:09 pm

I kind of think a flat 3 or 4 piety cost under the old system would be my preference. Giving 2 beads might also work in terms of giving monotheists more of an edge than dippers-in.

Scaling health is a bad idea in my book - I tend to like keeping scaling and non-scaling resources balanced, and a scaling health bonus infringes on the dwarf late game quite a lot (and would be, health boosters aside, the only thing that does). If we had a ton of things people were using dwarves for, I'd be less bothered about that. Also, Rogues (which have always been the biggest problem-user of GG) really do not need this...

Bonus for level difference - seems finicky to me, and by forcing players to wait for best results/bead gained, it'll aggravate the timing problems for Enlightenment (i.e. you want to time it so you can actually do stuff afterwards) - the sweet spot for this has really been hurt.

Absolution is really one of the most interesting balance things in the game atm - it balances a small-medium permanent health bonus against non-trivial XP-loss, inventory-stuffing and also at lower levels massively increasing the time it takes to regen to full health to exploit that bonus. That regen-time thing is why I think it was less of a problem at level 1/2 than people have suggested.

Converters drop blood stains as well.

I.e. you need to explore to fill out your health, find a suitable monster, Ding so as not to lose momentum, fight at least 2 levels above you to avoid suffering seriously from the net-available-XP-loss, convert some glyphs you'd otherwise keep just to free up inventory space and repeat. Now, for Rogues this has never been a problem, but for everyone else it's a very resource intensive approach that forces you to fight a few levels ahead, especially once you drop the one-fight-one-level-up ratio. Fire Heart is an interesting mitigator on that.

I dunno, I can never tell if I'm too invested in strategies already in play, which is why I tend to resent any changes for a bit, but the Dwarf GG Paladin is more or less the only Dwarf I see used to blow out Vicious dungeons at the moment. Would be a shame to swap even that one for another human. Also, to some extent, I think these changes are largely being prompted by the rogue synergy, which is what people seem to most use GG for.

Now, the rogue synergy's very very strong, as is his synergy with more or less everything, but I don't think it's really GG's fault. I don't really know what else everyone else was going for with GG pre-nerf other than the Rogue? Did you guys feel he was too strong in practice on other characters?
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby FDru on Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:28 pm

Blovski wrote:Now, the rogue synergy's very very strong, as is his synergy with more or less everything, but I don't think it's really GG's fault. I don't really know what else everyone else was going for with GG pre-nerf other than the Rogue? Did you guys feel he was too strong in practice on other characters?


After my first Naga City win with the GG prep strategy, I started using it for everything and it worked with any class (I use orcs for the bonus damage). No matter what you are doing, if you can get your health and attack high enough at that level you can steamroll. The only thing getting in your way are physical resist monsters... and then there's Cleansing.
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby Lujo on Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:29 pm

Well, the Rogue is up there with the Tri-Sword on the short (and rapidly shortening) list of things that stick out like sore thumbs.

Just before the nerf kicked in I cleared most of the PQI warmonger runs using GG almost exclusively - small bit of preps for shifting passages, but in general absolution kicked ass even on parched warmonger warlords. Sure - the regen hit was there and I thought it'd slow me down, but it didn't really because going all in let me ding like a crazy person (especially with potions).

From the notes:

PQI Warmonger Dwarf Assasin - Also went Miser. Is undoable without GG, or at least I can't think of a way to kill the physical immune guy without cleansing with the recent changes, as a warmonger.

PQI Purist Goblin Tinker in Hex Ruins - Went Warmonger as I was missing it. Found GG, and he won it for me. Absolution everything and enlightment. And when I say everything I mean everything. I drank a health potion here and there...

PQI Warmonger Dwarf Warlord in Hobbler's Went parched as well. Found GG right at the entrance, absovlved everything, and took 2 hits of "Protection" for the boss at lvl 5ish. Hobblers, I know, but still - a parched warmonger warlord is the same as a guard (worse because the guard can use glyphs and drink potions).

PQI Warmonger Dwarf Warlord in HHoS Also went parched. Prepped GG this time to ease on the scumming. So technicaly, you can take a dwarven guard and GG and beat at least HHoS. Medusa was the other boss, but in this case she's not the easies you can get due to orb and actualy sort of working against this... strat.

PQI Warmonger Dwarf Paladin in Slime Pits didn't go parched or purist, but picked up a Dragonshield and extra attack. Then went GG, absolved everything, went enlightment, converted everything and killed SMM and the Goo Blob.

PQI Parched Orc Paladin in Shifting Passages Went cheeky, unstoppable and specialist as well, but I could've had more - I didn't really need to use HALPMEH, and I didn't need the Martyr Wraps. I could've played it regularly, since it's an ok run, but I prepped extra attack, GG and the potions, absolved everything, converted everything (only thing I bought were a late MW), regen fought SMM to death, and then killed Evolvia with little problems. I'm missing Faithless here.

PQI Cheeky Dwarf Transmuter on Eastern Tundra Well, I really could've used the opportunity to try regular stuff out, but then I remembered that the boss has retaliate fireball and just prepped GG and roflstomped it by absolving everything. To make up for it, I bought the balanced dagger and used it to kill same lvl-undead post absolution, was probably suboptimal but notheless fun. Also, absolving everything on a GG dwarf... anything, makes Drac have no desecration penalty. This also means you can save your health potions and use them.

Flaming Dwarf Priest in Venture Cave Picked up GG, had extra boosters prepped, absolved everything, converted everything, killed lord Gobb without Enlightment. OK, so I did use Bycepps.

PQI Warmonger Elf Berserker on Havendale Bridge Brought only GG and the Whoopases. Bought one healing potion, otherwise miser, and had 0 benefits from converting stuff except GG piety. Won without enlightment.

Stopped making notes every time I simply walked into somewhere with absolution, ignored everything and beat the place with/without englighment. Most were without any natural sinergy after that point - not even dwarves, paladins or sometimes without any relevant class features...

What do you read from all this? The health boost itelf could be accomplished by simply prepping an alch scroll and investing some gold (you can probably get more health than from enlightment tbh).
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby Blovski on Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:58 pm

I think a prepped rogue or scummed rogue remains powerful as hell but I kind of would rather he stayed that way and was OP with the right combos than was dropped a bit and lost flavour. I think the class is too odd for the normal things to balance him.

Lujo wrote:...Stopped making notes every time I simply walked into somewhere with absolution, ignored everything and beat the place with/without englighment. Most were without any natural sinergy after that point - not even dwarves, paladins or sometimes without any relevant class features...


Ah, arright. Yeah, GG's phenomenal for Warmongers. Mostly because Cleansing is better than any alternative. I agree that i some of those runs cleansing is a clincher - I think I could otherwise handle more or less any of those runs with Taurog without much brain use. I agree with a bit of a nerf, but the mounting one doesn't work for me.

Have you guys used GG much on DL? It's very good on NC and DI, not good on less popcorny maps.

----

I've recently been cleaning out more or less everything hard with Rock Heart pseudo-pure (i.e. quest preps only) Tinkers (was trying to relocker fireheart) and no particular synergy, for instance, and usually winding up with Parched as well.
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby Lujo on Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:23 pm

Blovski wrote:I think a prepped rogue or scummed rogue remains powerful as hell but I kind of would rather he stayed that way and was OP with the right combos than was dropped a bit and lost flavour. I think the class is too odd for the normal things to balance him.


True, you wouldn't hear about him from me if that particular set of abilites were on a monster class or something - the only real issue I have with him is the whole learning curve thing. It creates the whole "sucess without learning" loop harder than most other things, and he's in a place where you're supposed to be learning not destroying and feeling good about your leet skillz.

He's actually fairly prep dependent and rather difficult to play purist unless you scum. My suggestion was to make him less extreme in the very beggining of a run and make him scale attack bonus with levels untill he gets where he is now at the 5-7 lvl range. That'd give people less incentive to try to fix all his problems before the run even starts - what he teaches is mainly that you can really prep for cheeze if you focus on the most "optimal" and ignore everything else. It's also easy to miss stuff that's powerful with the Rogue (as in makes the Rogue powerfull) that way...

He'd still be way out there, just in a way that's not causing too many issues. Anyway, not getting into that - it's just something I think...


Blovski wrote:Ah, arright. Yeah, GG's phenomenal for Warmongers. Mostly because Cleansing is better than any alternative. I agree that i some of those runs cleansing is a clincher - I think I could otherwise handle more or less any of those runs with Taurog without much brain use. I agree with a bit of a nerf, but the mounting one doesn't work for me.


Yeah, the way it was was too good, the way it is needs a bit more time or will be figured out somehow. Things tend to work out. Btw - IS there a third option for warmonger? Or any warmonger tool except Trisword, Taurog and GG? not counting classes ofc.
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby gjaustin on Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:25 pm

Bloggorus wrote:
Darvin wrote:I'd also like to clarify that I'm not opposed to a piety cost increase, just not a scaling one.

How about increasing returns the higher your level is compared to the monster used for absolution?

That probably violates the "keep it simple" principle.


Not really, it just sounds that way. Put it this way:

"Sacrifice a low level monster for the greater good. Receive 2 max HP for every level between the monster's and your own. Targets the lowest-level living monster in the dungeon and adds a prayer bead to your inventory."

I doubt anyone could confuse that one, especially compared to crazy complex mechanics like burning, poison and lifesteal.


I think that making it "Receive max HP equal to the monster's level" would be much simpler
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby Blovski on Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:30 pm

@Lujo, Dracul (resists, ton of extra resources, blood swell) and TT (less so when prepped) can both be acceptable warmonger options. Binlor can cope with bear mace prepped on the right map, but I wouldn't generally recommend him.
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby Lujo on Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:44 pm

Ooooh, didn't even think of those O.O

See, that's what happens when you get handed the too good + too obvious solutions, your brain gets lazy ^^

I'll try those out - I was actually worried about this.
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