Wiki edit : Battle of Attrition

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Wiki edit : Battle of Attrition

Postby flap on Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:35 am

Hello, I have just made a tiny edit regarding the "Battle of attrition" strategy.
If anyone has anything to add to it... (well, there is probably a lot to do. An example and table might be welcome. I might work on it later...)

http://www.qcfdesign.com/wiki/DesktopDu ... _Attrition
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Re: Wiki edit : Battle of Attrition

Postby Sidestepper on Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:35 pm

In-forum jargon has latched upon "regen-fighting" as the term of choice for that approach. You can simply the formula by simply multiplying the monster's damage by its level, and then doing the same for yourself. If your number is higher, then regen fighting will work. This ignores things like resistances, magic, fast or slow regeneration, and so on, but it is a good baseline to start from and is oftentimes all you need.

The strategy section needs a rewrite in general. There's way too much about incredibly specific and patently obvious actions: You can fireball and then attack! If you have enough mana, you can fireball twice and attack! If you have enough health, you can fireball and then attack twice, but you can only fireball once before attacking unless you have enough mana for two fireballs, then you can fireball twice before attacking twice. 0_o
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Re: Wiki edit : Battle of Attrition

Postby FDru on Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:46 pm

Sidestepper wrote:The strategy section needs a rewrite in general. There's way too much about incredibly specific and patently obvious actions: You can fireball and then attack! If you have enough mana, you can fireball twice and attack! If you have enough health, you can fireball and then attack twice, but you can only fireball once before attacking unless you have enough mana for two fireballs, then you can fireball twice before attacking twice. 0_o


I facepalm so hard when I watch most people play this kind of game on Youtube. Trust me, these incredibly basic strategies are useful to a lot of players.
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Re: Wiki edit : Battle of Attrition

Postby Sidestepper on Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:18 pm

Even so, the current forest of verbiage could be replaced with something like this:

The most basic form of attack is to spend all of your mana on fireballs and all of your health on attacks. If you calculate that this won't be enough to kill the target monster, you will need to seek alternative approaches or look for a different target.
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Re: Wiki edit : Battle of Attrition

Postby Kuranes on Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:51 pm

FDru wrote:I facepalm so hard when I watch most people play this kind of game on Youtube. Trust me, these incredibly basic strategies are useful to a lot of players.


What about tiered advice? Have a section with the bare basics, a section building opun that, and a veteran section?
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Re: Wiki edit : Battle of Attrition

Postby flap on Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:14 am

Sidestepper wrote:Even so, the current forest of verbiage could be replaced with something like this:

The most basic form of attack is to spend all of your mana on fireballs and all of your health on attacks. If you calculate that this won't be enough to kill the target monster, you will need to seek alternative approaches or look for a different target.


Very true...
The wiki is not really up to the level of the forum. But over, the information is dispatched all around (and probably overdated, due to the "beta" process)
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Re: Wiki edit : Battle of Attrition

Postby The Avatar on Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:19 pm

Yeah, the problem with pre-release wiki work is that stuff gets change around a TON. Most, if not all, of the articles made a year or half a year ago are outdated. That's why I've decided to cease work on it until the game is released.
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Re: Wiki edit : Battle of Attrition

Postby flap on Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:16 am

After sidestepper's comment on my formula, I have given more thoughts on regen-fighting. I have came up with another one taking into account firball casting, which should relatively easy to use (even if it might look complicated at first sight).
Let's define :
Dh = damage caused by hero (in hitpoints, or hp)
Rh = point restored by hero per tile (in hitpoints/tile, or hp/t) (usually level of the hero)
Df = damage caused by fireball (hp)
Cf = number of tiles to cast a new fireball (usually, cost in manan) (t)
Dm = damage caused by the monster (hp)
Rm = point restored by the monster per tile explored (hp/t) (usually level of the monster)

You have the total damage caused to the monster by the hero per tile (taking into account the regeneration) :
Dt = (Dh*Rh - Dm(Rm - Df/Cf))/Dm (in hp/t)

So, you can regen fight if Dh*Rh > Dm(Rm -Df/Cf)
If you decided not to cast fireballs, you can regen fight if Dh*Rh > Dm*Rm

Now, lets have a closer look at the formula:
As Sidestepper staded, we have for both the monster and the hero a ratio emerging : Damages*Regeneration (in hp*hp/t), which we could call the hit-regeneration ratio. The higher, the more potent is the character in regen fighting (he strikes stronger than his opponent and/or regenerates quicker).
However, when we take into account the fireball, the damages caused by the fireball per turn (ratio Df/Cf) reduces the regeneration per tile (Rm) of the monster, hence that new value "Dm(Rm-Df/Cf)" for the hit-regeneration ratio of the monster.

Finally, the number of tile required to kill the monster in regen fighting would be :
with T = number of tiles required to kill the monster (t)
H = health of the monster (hp)
T = H/Dt
or
T = H*Dm/(Rh*Dh-Dm(Rm-Df/Cf)) (in t)

For efficient regen fighting, for H, we should consider the remaining health of the monster once the hero has used its full stock of health and mana for the original strikes (before starting the regeneration). This the higher max health and mana, the less tile you will use for the regeneration part of the fight.

Also, note that every damages should be adapted with the opponent's resistance, player's glyph and so on.
Well, this would definitely require some illustrations ! We'll see that later.

Any thoughts about that ?

EDIT : This is mostly from my DD alpha experience. I don't have yet an extensive experience of DD beta. For example, I realize that the monster regeneration slowdown permitted by the fireballs is not really taken into account. There might plenty of other effects.

EDIT : Corrected a mistake in the formulas (considered damages caused per hit, instead of damages per turn...)
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Re: Wiki edit : Battle of Attrition

Postby flap on Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:05 pm

Lately, I have been trying to regen-fight as much as I could. (mostly in the "den of danger", as I did not want to unlock too many things yet. I'd like the visual update to move a bit further first...).

Well, I am really pleased : the previous formulas have been of great help to choose which monster to regen fight (is it possible, how many tiles will I use ?). For example, I had never dared before to regen-fight a level 6 goblin with a level 4 wizard (helped with a level-up from l3 to l4). Of course, it has been pretty resource consuming : I could easilly kill the boss, but had to leave a few level 9-8 monsters alive.

Contrary to what is stated in the first posts of that thread, there ARE items that make regen fighting way easier in early kingdoms : BURNDAYRAZ is kick ass for this.
Basically, once you have got it and manages to use it properly, it almost divides by 2 the regeneration of the monsters (burning effect + Damages when casting divided by mana cost. Thus a level 4 wizard using it will substratc up to 1+16/5=4,2 regeneration points to its foes). But of course, exploration wise, the less remaining health to regen-fighting, the better.
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Re: Wiki edit : Battle of Attrition

Postby The Avatar on Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:44 pm

BURNDAYRAZ is not an item. The only really good early game regen fight item is the bloody sigil.
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