So I took the Transmuter to VGT...

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Re: So I took the Transmuter to VGT...

Postby Lujo on Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:00 pm

In the the spirit of jovial irony, heed this advice: the retaliate fireball room is a deathtrap. You kill one guy with no fireballs, you kill another guy without fireballs... And then you forget that you're not supposed to use fireballs and kill yourself :D

I think the tooltip is misleading. "You feel your magic withering slightly", doesn't feel right. "Blokes 'round 'ere throw fireballs at ye. Kills ye stone ded if ye not carefull!" would be more apropriate.
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Re: So I took the Transmuter to VGT...

Postby Darvin on Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:45 pm

Also, bloodless Horatio versus a Vampire is pretty much an auto-lose.

Since the vast majority of characters will be picking up blood hunger at some point, bloodless Horatio is pretty devastating to anyone.


Not to mention a lot of builds need certain items like soul orb or viper ward.

Yeah, those are pretty wickedly important on VGT.
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Re: So I took the Transmuter to VGT...

Postby Lujo on Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:25 pm

Darvin wrote:
Not to mention a lot of builds need certain items like soul orb or viper ward.

Yeah, those are pretty wickedly important on VGT.


Very true. Soul Orb is deffinitely much stronger than Viper Ward, though - if you get poisoned, you don't lose all your health, if you get mana burned it's a huge resource drain. If patches poisons you on level up - yes it can mean game over, but if he mana burns you you can't use glyphs at all untill you do something about it, and your health will follow swiftly.

I've been trying to repeat the success, and I keep being 4 hits short. I think 3 times so far now. So far all the runs ended in either:

1) 4 hits or so short of killing H. (Several Times)
2) I forget that I'm on the retaliate floor and kill myself, or alternatively forget I'm on the first strike floor and kill myself (Most times, it seems)
3) Patches mana burns me too many times, ends up costing me the game (Often enough to have me adjust my strat)
4) A floor/monster/timing thereof combo cripples me too much, and I reach the boss with no resources if at all (About as often as killing my self by accident on the retaliate and first strike floors, or a bit less frequent)


And, well, cleansing whas been working out for me, but it seems that every time I really play smart and put an effort into a run which is supposed to end in triumphant BYCEPSS spam - I kill myself on the fireball/first strike floors. And I'm allready scumming for getindare so scumming for byceps on top of it is just unapealing...
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Re: So I took the Transmuter to VGT...

Postby Darvin on Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:31 pm

Very true. Soul Orb is deffinitely much stronger than Viper Ward, though - if you get poisoned, you don't lose all your health, if you get mana burned it's a huge resource drain.

I've always held that mana burn and mana drain should have been made two separate effects. By all means let the Wraith have both specials, but the soul orb should only cancel one of the two.

On the other side, what if poison did cause you to lose health as you explore?


And I'm allready scumming for getindare so scumming for byceps on top of it is just unapealing...

Considering that Horatio is pretty much the best-case scenario imaginable for the BYSSEPS glyph and the GETINDARE glyph is still significantly more important overall, that should tell you something about the balance of these glyphs...
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Re: So I took the Transmuter to VGT...

Postby The Avatar on Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:06 pm

No losing health with exploration. Please.

The problem with VGT is long term items (GETINDARE, Soul Orb, etc) are way to good, but the dungeon is hard enough that you need that. I'll repeat an earlier sentiment: There's far too much luck. They should tie down at least one more variable, be it the curses, mini-bosses, god order, shops (they could do something like NC), glyphs, or any other random aspect. The fact that you need to luck out on 3 or more aspects on top of the fact it's so time consuming kind of drains the fun. I support nerfs, especially if it makes (V)VGT remotely possible.
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Re: So I took the Transmuter to VGT...

Postby Lujo on Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:44 pm

Well, I couldn't speak for any other feature because it's VGT, and VGT is weird and special, but GETINDARE is really strong in any circumstance. In terms of saving resources, I'm not sure anything beats it at all...

Soul Orb is about the only other thing that is strangely off the charts, but that has more to do with the difference between poison and mana burn. On the other hand, spellcating is more powerful than melee, so I guess it needs a stronger counter, but mana burn creates these screwy situations where gnomes can get rid of it easily, while the big mana guys are hurt by it more. I've no clue what would happen if the drain and the no-regen parts were separated, but as it stands, especially with Halpmeh curing poison, Soul Orb > Venom Ward by quite a bit.

@Avatar: Well, there are two Sensation Stones on the troll floor (you can find one and the troll drops the other one. I wonder if being guaranteed all the glyphs instead of having 2 sensation stones would help? Right now a VGT run costs about 800-1000 gold, I think, since even trying without getindare is probably a fools errand.



Also, al this has me thinking about forgoing patches. Thing is, I spend most of the playthrough in GG, and ussually rack up about 5-8 beads from using cleansing to cure the various debuffs. I generaly use the salve after the EM desecration, and the fortitude after the illusion boss, trying to deal with the statue to the best of my abilities. But the damned bear eats my potions and piety (I spend most of the game in GG and Drac), and doesn't really give out too many reists.

If I go Dragonshield + Taurog + Drac + Scroll that's 53% physical, and it costs me 3 popcorn and a mana point. If I take Enlightment, which I ussualy do, I don't even need the popcorn and don't feel the MP. If I go for the gold instead, i'd get about as much as I get anyway, but I'd save the potions, the exploration, and an early inventory slot. I could also attempt a resist padding out with pactmaker, allthough that's been a bit suicidal in VGT in my expirience.
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Re: So I took the Transmuter to VGT...

Postby The Avatar on Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:58 am

Here's a good example of the random problem. I have a totally maxed out monk (90+ damage, 75% resist all, poison and mana burn immunity). I'm on the second to last floor with very little regen space. The second to last floor is Binlor with no regen space. I lost. If they don't want to remove the curses, could they at least remove/change some of the nastier ones (like that one)?
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Re: So I took the Transmuter to VGT...

Postby Lujo on Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:02 am

Image

And there we go! It even registered, woo-hoo!

Anyway, went with black market instead of patches, turned out to be a good move after all. It took good Blue Bead play, some careful absolution timing (for the curse whipe, wouldn't you know it), and was all round awesome. I did have Soul Orb, Getindare and Byceps, and failed attempts cost me about 3000-5000 k gold, but it was worth it ^^

Come to think of it, this is the first attempt with Bycepss that reached Horratio, so I guess it can be done with Patches too.

Now about that crusader...

Well, horatio's floor can still have "effects", it's often been revealed for me.
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Re: So I took the Transmuter to VGT...

Postby The Avatar on Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:37 am

Then you are one lucky person. The last 3 times the Binlor's floor has been revealed, and the last 5 times either Binlor or Pactmaker. Just my luck.
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Re: So I took the Transmuter to VGT...

Postby Lujo on Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:56 am

Dear god that terrible. :(

Yes, that can happen, and whenever it happens thats a failed run. That would mess even a Transmuter up, and transmuter's actually good for VGT. I've been saying that VGT is too random for a while now - if I didn't have thousands of gold to spare I wouldn't even be attempting it. I doesn't have to be this random, especialy if a VT run of it is supposed to be doable.

On the other hand, if they make it fixed (made more static) in some way, we'd find a solution, an optimal sequence and beat it with everything. I don't think it's doable if one of the big exploration floors turns up fully revealed, especaily now that the undead are bloodless. The no-xp floor is also very problematic wherever it happens. There's other small things that can mess you up as well. I don't know how to give feedback on it, I don't know what was intended, so I don't know what to do about it.

But it seems to me that the one thing that makes it much harder than the previous incarnations, regardless of "rocks fall everyone dies" mechanisms, is that you can't plan ahead very well. If we could somehow know the sequence of altars that we get in a run, or the sequence of challenges (by having statues of whatever next to the stairs or the spot where stairs spawn), even if we could only see the one after the current one, I think it would be easier.

EDIT: In the sense that when considering a strat or play sequence that's "viable" in VGT, right now, is pretty inflexible. You always have to be ready for just about every nasty hazard at once, and you only find out what's your next objective or what's your next got when you're done with the current one. And every floor can contain challenges for every type of character at the same time, so you have to be ready for everything all the time which means focusing on cheeze-or-bust. Having any idea about when to save an inventory slot, when to convert something, or pick up a situational item for the next floor at least, or to look for alternative solutions while you get to the res stacking gods would be huge.

People would probably use this to scum, but scumming in VGT is an expensive sport, and I'm not sure I would've even attempted scumming for GETINDARE if I wasn't playing the guy who starts with LEMISI.
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